XOJet growth...??

[kingaira90]

What is the per diem? Or is it handled another way? Thanks -kingaira90

 

[t-bone]

What is the per diem? Or is it handled another way? Thanks -kingaira90

No per diem. All expenses go on company credit card, or your own if you want the points.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

What are "expenses"? If all your meals on the road are expenses and they are paid by the co. OK. If they aren't expenses, then you have to pay for all your meals without any perdiem, and that is NOT OK.

Thanx ahead of time for your answer.

cliff
YIP

 

[t-bone]

Seriously?

expense

Definition

Any cost of doing business resulting from revenue-generating activities.
.....
From what you've read, do you honestly think we're paying for our own meals? This company is all about treating its employees well, and that includes providing a reasonable QOL while on the road.

Company pays for: dry cleaning, BlackBerry, all meals while on the road, rental cars, hotels, FAA medical, uniforms, jacket, and any tips you dole out.

Hope that clarifies it for you.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

Thanx-it does clarify it. Sounds good.

cliff
YIP

PS-I know some of our pilots WOULDN'T like it, because they'd rather have the perdiem and are really cheap, so they can bank more $.

 

[Huggyu2]

I went through the interview process last year, and was very impressed with the leadership there.
Best of luck to all of you there.

 

[NCherches]

9 days or 17 days on the road....too much for me yo. I'd need more boxers for that sort of rotation...

 

[NJA Capt]

Take a close look at NJA-....They will actually take a fraction of those aircraft as many owners leave for other solutions (XO Jet, whole aircraft) and a HUGE number of current aircraft are exited from their fleet.

Fraction of deliveries??
NJA has taken all of the 800XP deliveries....and added more, taken all the Excel deliveries.....and added more, taken the X deliveries....and added more, Canceled CJ3 orders and bought the same number of 400XP...then added the CJ4 order.

400+ planes based in CMH, not including NJE/NJI/EJM. Less than 10% of the fleet has been phased out/retired. Not exactly a "HUGE" number....

 

[NJA Capt]

1. XO jet claims that it is fractional, but cheaper if you buy a larger share. Same operational concept. You buy a fraction of a plane, pay mgmt fees, and hourly rates based on usage.

If XO is a fractional, and structured similar to all the others, how does it advertise being the first private airline when it was founded 16 years after NJA?

 

[152SIC]

XO is not a fractional. The owners own the whole aircraft.

 

[t-bone]

differences

Anyone who claims that XOJet has a similar business model as the fractionals is mistaken.

While NetJets only flies Netjets passengers, FLOPS only flies FLOPS passengers, and FlexJet only flies FlexJet passengers...we can fly passengers for all of the above, as well as any other straight charter client that wants to fly on us. So while they are deadheading all over the place to pick up their owners, we are able to market ourselves to a much bigger pool of business when we need to move an airplane to cover an owner's trip. Our deadhead percentage is very low, and the percentage of that deadhead that we eat the cost on is even lower.

Another difference is that our airplanes are not owned by multiple different owners. We don't sell 16th shares, or 25-hour blocks through Marquis. Therefore, we don't need supplemental lift during the peak seasons like the true fractionals do. Rather, we backfill our own flying by helping those guys out.

It's a better deal for our owners, they don't pay an obscene hourly rate, and it's a better deal for us because we keep the charter revenue and rarely pay for deadheads.

XOJet is similar to the fractionals because we all fly airplanes. That's about it.

 

[jonjuan]

It's a better deal for our owners, they don't pay an obscene hourly rate, and it's a better deal for us because we keep the charter revenue and rarely pay for deadheads.

XOJet is similar to the fractionals because we all fly airplanes. That's about it.

But they do pay for the entire plane? Take a CX, for example. At $20,000,000, they are now exposed to the ENTIRE cost of depreciation. Say a CX is worth 65% after 5 years and 1,000 hours a year in the airframe. An owner flies 300 hours a year or 1,500 hours over 5-years.
They have lost $7,000,000 or $4,666 an hour of asset value. Now take a 300-hour fractional owner who buys the plane for $7,500,000. With a 35% loss, the total loss will be $2,625,000 or $1,750 per hour. A difference of $2,900 per hour.
Now factor in the cost of capital. $20,000,000 at 8% a year is $1,600,000 for year one or $5,333 per hour. Cost of capital on the fractional owners $7,500,000. 8% is $600,000 during year one or $2,000 an hour for a delta of $3,333 an hour.
Combining these two differences yields $6,233 an hour or $9,350,000 over 5-years.
If you don't think most potential owners won't consider this, you are crazy. Very, very niche market, imho.

 

[skiandsurf]

But they do pay for the entire plane? Take a CX, for example. At $20,000,000, they are now exposed to the ENTIRE cost of depreciation. Say a CX is worth 65% after 5 years and 1,000 hours a year in the airframe. An owner flies 300 hours a year or 1,500 hours over 5-years.
.

Forget the Dollars and Cents, how about owners. If you only have 16 aircraft, and you lose one, thats big. At NJs, if we lose one owner, thats not even a drop in the bucket.

 

[skiandsurf]

But they do pay for the entire plane? Take a CX, for example. At $20,000,000, they are now exposed to the ENTIRE cost of depreciation. Say a CX is worth 65% after 5 years and 1,000 hours a year in the airframe. An owner flies 300 hours a year or 1,500 hours over 5-years.
.

Forget the Dollars and Cents, how about owners. If you only have 16 aircraft (16 owners), and you lose one owner, thats big. At NJs, if we lose one owner, thats not even a drop in the bucket.

 

[Swass]

Apparently the owners are happy with the arrangement. They see their time as a valued asset, much the same as NJ owners, but with the charter biz to add to that value when they aren't using said plane, if I read it correctly.

Sounds like what Beech is doing with their 135 cert. They are putting private owners on their program with benefits such as flying their plane with Beech pilots when it would otherwise not be flying (hence revenue). I may be wrong with my assertion, so tell me if so....

 

[t-bone]

fancy math!

Juan,

That sure was a lot of numbers you threw out there, I'm sorry but I'm not even sure what the point is you're trying to make. Is it that it's impossible for XOJet to be less expensive than the other options out there?

I'm not a numbers guy, and I don't sit in on the sales presentations. I'm just a pilot, and I get to hear the feedback from our owners firsthand. When they tell me that "we love your airplanes, we love the crews, AND you're 40% cheaper than NetJets" I don't pull out my HP financial calculator and ask that they prove it.

If that isn't sufficient for you, then please schedule a meeting with our sales people and find our for yourself. Here's how to find them: http://www.xojet.com/ownership/index.php

I wish I had all the answers, but like I said, I'm just a pilot.

 

[On Your Six]

It's All About the Tax Shield...

But they do pay for the entire plane? Take a CX, for example. At $20,000,000, they are now exposed to the ENTIRE cost of depreciation. Say a CX is worth 65% after 5 years and 1,000 hours a year in the airframe. An owner flies 300 hours a year or 1,500 hours over 5-years.
They have lost $7,000,000 or $4,666 an hour of asset value. Now take a 300-hour fractional owner who buys the plane for $7,500,000. With a 35% loss, the total loss will be $2,625,000 or $1,750 per hour. A difference of $2,900 per hour.
Now factor in the cost of capital. $20,000,000 at 8% a year is $1,600,000 for year one or $5,333 per hour. Cost of capital on the fractional owners $7,500,000. 8% is $600,000 during year one or $2,000 an hour for a delta of $3,333 an hour.
Combining these two differences yields $6,233 an hour or $9,350,000 over 5-years.
If you don't think most potential owners won't consider this, you are crazy. Very, very niche market, imho.

Owning an airplane is an excuse to pay less taxes. Wealthy owners are interested in tax shelters - depreciating assets that will reduce their taxable income. So, a private jet that depreciates at 15-20% per year is a GOOD THING. Why does Jim Carey own a Gulfstream V? Does he use it all the time? Nope (I think Avjet manages it for him out of BUR). The point is that the millions in depreciation expense every year are applied against his movie earnings and it reduces his taxable income (say he earns $20 million this year - he then claims $5 million in depreciation expense on his GV - he is only taxed on $15 million). At the same time, he can sell the GV in a few years at a value near his original purchase value (the residual value of the asset is key - what you can sell it for a few years down the line) - it turns out to be a good investment for wealthy people who are looking to reduce their taxable income. Most of these assets retain the majority of their market value unless they are totally beat up. I am sure XOJet is having no problem finding wealthy Google employees/investors in the San Francisco area who want both nice transportation and an effective tax shield (shiney new Citation X or CL300).

By the way, the Netjets shares are also depreciable assets over a 5 year period - it is the same concept but a smaller dollar amount with the fraction.

 

[NJA Capt]

When they tell me that ...you're 40% cheaper than NetJets".

There is a market for both. Much like the markets for Toyota and Lexus. The Toyota version amy be "cheaper," but the Lexus has more appeal to a certain clientel. NetJets has never advertised as a discount source of air travel. It is what it is.

 

[skiandsurf]

Juan,

When they tell me that "we love your airplanes, we love the crews, AND you're 40% cheaper than NetJets" .

I am confuses. I thought it was THEIR plane, now its XOJets plane?

One of the many benefits of NJs, is they have a variety of planes to choose from.....1 guy going from SJC to LAS can get by with a small plane (less money). The same guy wants to take his family, and nannies, to Hawaii...take a G4. (can you sqeeze 12 people in a C300?).

In reality, XOJet sounds like any other charter or management company, but with 2 aircraft types.

 

[Wiggums]

The same guy wants to take his family, and nannies, to Hawaii...take a G4. (can you sqeeze 12 people in a C300?).

I hope that's not part of the sales pitch at NetJets. If I can afford to buy a whole Challenger 300 then I can afford to charter a Global for the once a year trip that has more then 9 pax.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

According to their website u can either buy a whole aircraft, buy 1/2 or straight charter.

They have King Airs, Xs and are buying Challenger 300s.

cliff
GYY

 

[xrated]

I am confuses. I thought it was THEIR plane, now its XOJets plane?

One of the many benefits of NJs, is they have a variety of planes to choose from.....1 guy going from SJC to LAS can get by with a small plane (less money). The same guy wants to take his family, and nannies, to Hawaii...take a G4. (can you sqeeze 12 people in a C300?).

In reality, XOJet sounds like any other charter or management company, but with 2 aircraft types.

Blah Blah Blah....now I know why you're confused or as you say "confuses". Some people will never understand so it's not worth trying to explain.

 

[X-rated]

Toyota?

There is a market for both. Much like the markets for Toyota and Lexus. The Toyota version amy be "cheaper," but the Lexus has more appeal to a certain clientel. NetJets has never advertised as a discount source of air travel. It is what it is.

NJA Capt,

Well, I'm not sure I agree with your analogy. Why are you so sure NetJets has to offer a higher quality product? You know nothing about us! I on the other hand, have personally flown over a hundred NetJets trips, and I can tell you with absolute certainty, many of your customers do not agree with you. Your customers have told me more times than I can count that "this is the best trip I have ever had," and "this is the nicest airplane I have ever been on." I am not trying to sugests that Netjets does not give great service to their customers. Clearly, Netjets sets the level of the bar in this industry. We however are not content to merely meet that bar. We strive to continually far exceed our customers expectations in every aspect of our business. We have a highly efficient and innovative business model which you and others do not immediately understand, so you infer we are somehow second tier. You basically inferred that we are a bargan basement carrier. I wonder what people thought of the fractional business when RTS thought it up?

Please don't misinterpret this post as flame. It is not meant to disparage Netjets in any way. For a large company, you guys do a phenomenal job, but to some extent mediocrity grows with size. We too are battling to maintain our level of quality with our explosive growth. However, we are still a small boutique carrier with all brand new highly upgraded aircraft. Our pilots are all highly motivated stockholders in the company, and we are all trying to build something truly special. Our founding pilots flew for Netjets for many years, and they tried to emulate what worked well and improve what didn't.

On second thought, I think your analogy may have been correct; you just mixed up the players!

 

[X-rated]

understanding the numbers

But they do pay for the entire plane? Take a CX, for example. At $20,000,000, they are now exposed to the ENTIRE cost of depreciation. Say a CX is worth 65% after 5 years and 1,000 hours a year in the airframe. An owner flies 300 hours a year or 1,500 hours over 5-years.
They have lost $7,000,000 or $4,666 an hour of asset value. Now take a 300-hour fractional owner who buys the plane for $7,500,000. With a 35% loss, the total loss will be $2,625,000 or $1,750 per hour. A difference of $2,900 per hour.
Now factor in the cost of capital. $20,000,000 at 8% a year is $1,600,000 for year one or $5,333 per hour. Cost of capital on the fractional owners $7,500,000. 8% is $600,000 during year one or $2,000 an hour for a delta of $3,333 an hour.
Combining these two differences yields $6,233 an hour or $9,350,000 over 5-years.
If you don't think most potential owners won't consider this, you are crazy. Very, very niche market, imho.

Dude,

You obviously put a great deal of thought into this post. It is funny to me that it never occured to you that a Netjets owner will take an equal, but proportional depreciation hit on whatever fraction they purchase. In fact, Netjets puts so many hours on their aircraft, an NJ owner will likely take a bigger hit on their investment over time. (proportionally of course)

However, many owners buy these aircraft not simply as a means of transportation, but also as a tax stratagy due to the accelerated depretiation schedule. It is not necessarily a bad thing.

As T-Bone pointed out, we have a competitive advantage because we are part fractional, and part charter operator. This significantly limits the number of "guaranteed" customers on peak days, and allows us to dramatically reduce the deadhead legs by backfilling with charter. To put it simply, we can be cheaper because we don't fly as many empty airplanes around, and we never have to rely on expensive outside vendors to supplement our flying on peak days. We just sell less charter.

So, with all due respect to your humble oppinion, we hope prospective owners will fully "consider" the economics. We just hope they understand them better than you.

 

[On Your Six]

FYI - XOJet is getting bashed on the Fractional board in a comparison with Netjets.

 

[Sun Devil 2000]

XOJet seems like an interesting option. I have some questions and I was hoping someone may be able to answer them for me please.

1. How quickly someone could be based in PHX?

2. I have not seen any concrete information about pay and/or benefits on this site or the company's web site. Someone posted $50K for FOs and $90K for CAs are these figures correct? Does anyone have an actual pay scale? How about 401k, 401k matching, and/or profit sharing?

3. How long does it take to upgrade? Is upgrade based on seniority or is it merit based?

4. Can someone please describe a typical day? By that I mean - how long is a normal duty day? How many legs?

Any additional information on XOJet would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance for the information.

 

[On Your Six]

XOJet seems like an interesting option. I have some questions and I was hoping someone may be able to answer them for me please.

1. How quickly someone could be based in PHX?

2. I have not seen any concrete information about pay and/or benefits on this site or the company's web site. Someone posted $50K for FOs and $90K for CAs are these figures correct? Does anyone have an actual pay scale? How about 401k, 401k matching, and/or profit sharing?

3. How long does it take to upgrade? Is upgrade based on seniority or is it merit based?

4. Can someone please describe a typical day? By that I mean - how long is a normal duty day? How many legs?

Any additional information on XOJet would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance for the information.

Trying to get back for those ASU football games in Tempe? I don't blame you. I read on another thread that if pilots select a reserve schedule (more possible days out) then they can do homebasing. I don't know many details. Flying the C-X or Challenger 300 wouldn't be too bad...

BTW, I do know a few Netjets pilots who live in PHX but commute to LAX on the 7/7 schedule (they only commute twice per month to LA) - it works for them. Citationshares and Avantair also have PHX domiciles for pilots if you are interested in the fractional business.

 

[X-rated]

XOJet seems like an interesting option. I have some questions and I was hoping someone may be able to answer them for me please.

1. How quickly someone could be based in PHX?

2. I have not seen any concrete information about pay and/or benefits on this site or the company's web site. Someone posted $50K for FOs and $90K for CAs are these figures correct? Does anyone have an actual pay scale? How about 401k, 401k matching, and/or profit sharing?

3. How long does it take to upgrade? Is upgrade based on seniority or is it merit based?

4. Can someone please describe a typical day? By that I mean - how long is a normal duty day? How many legs?

Any additional information on XOJet would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance for the information.

1. You could be based in PHX from the date you are hired.

2. I'm the one who posted the 50 and 90K numbers. It is actually 250 per day for FO's times 204 days per year = 51K, and 450 per day for Capt times 204 = 91,800. More for IOE Capt, Check airmen, Team Leaders etc. Longevity pay will be anounced shortly.
Yes, there is 401K. No match right now because they are giving us company stock intead. It is my understanding eventually there will be a match.

3. We do have senority numbers, but upgrade is not entirely based on them. We hire pilots with varying experience levels, and some guys need to build their total time before we can send them out as Capt. Wyvern and Argus require certain TT limits to certify us.

4."Typical Day"? My guess is that you are new to the unscheduled world? It could be anywhere from no flying, to 10 hours of flying with 14 hrs of duty, and six legs. That said, the X does lots of coast to coast. Often it is just the one leg, often not.

 

[AGVMIA]

X-Rated, please check your PM's. Thank you.

 

[hammer2]

There is a market for both. Much like the markets for Toyota and Lexus. The Toyota version amy be "cheaper," but the Lexus has more appeal to a certain clientel. NetJets has never advertised as a discount source of air travel. It is what it is.

This may change fractional life as we know it. Charter plus owner, sounds like more work!!!!