XJT vs NetJets

[nimtz]

I'll never forget Savanah overnights. Jeez I miss those.

For some reason I can't seem to remember my SAV overnights...

This thread is all about lifestyle. Some of us can do corporate others can't, but it is getting to the point of nitpicking over who has the cooler flying job. For me the travel benefits and vacation policy I've had at Xjet have made it well worth spending time here. I guarentee you I couldn't of gone the places I've gone for as cheap as I have if I worked for Mr. Buffet.

Then again for the betterment of mankind I don't have a wife or kids. Throw that in the equation I would say stay away from Xjet. At least upgrade time is pathetic at both places. In this day in age there is no safe answer and my opinon is as worthless as everybody elses.

 

[ATRedneck]

I average 20 different cities per week, usually without visiting a certain city more than once.

That sounds too much like work to me. And it was. I flew corporate and couldn't get out fast enough.

I average about 12 legs a week, with a hub at one end of each leg, so that's what... six (non-hub) places a week.

I don't sit in FBOs for hours on end waiting for passengers who can't tell time or who stopped to get a bite while I waited at the airport, hungry, but afraid if I ran down the street to grab a bite they'd show up.

I've never thrown a bag that wasn't mine (or my crew's), never ran a dustbuster through the cabin, never brewed coffee, schlepped ice, cleaned the blue room, or had to kiss some bigwig's pompous a$$.

Basically it comes down to being a limo driver or a bus driver. A limo driver has a little luxury, or at least gets to see luxury behind him while he's just the hired help. He has to deal with people who think the world revolves around them and must operate by their schedules. If the boss needs to go to Otumwa, Iowa in the dead of night, you're going. And the only place in town to stay is the Super 8 Motel by the off-ramp. And forget about a beer at dinner... the boss just might have to jet off to some garden spot like Pascagoula or Hobbs or Liberal in an hour.

Driving a bus isn't pretty. There's no corporate-caliber catering leftovers to pick at when you arrive (the one perk I miss!), but the folks in the back better sit down, shut up, and hang on, because we have a schedule to keep. I know where I'm going, when I'm going there, and if you're not on the airplane when it's time to push, tough noogies. Catch the next one.

 

[upndsky]

I think both have good and bad points. When Midway went bust, a bunch of my friends went to Netjets. About half love it, the other half hate it.

I fly for XJT and I like it better than the very limited amount of passenger charter I've done in the past. I certainly don't miss sitting at some podunk airport for hours with no car and nothing to do. Also, XJT has a vast route system, so I may be in Portland, Maine, one night and Mexico City the next. Even though I'm EWR based, I may never see EWR except for the first and last leg of my pairing. It's also nice to fly to airports where there's an ILS and a long runway 99% of the time. I don't have to clean the airplane (although I will help the flight attendant at an outstation turn as a courtesy) and I don't have to suck up to some rich smarta$$. On the other hand, the 7-on, 7-off does sound nice, and while we fly to a fixed number of cities, at Netjets you'll have to opportunity to go to some really cool places (and sh!tty ones as well).

From my friends at Netjets, I have heard that the company can be very draconian and inflexible, one of the main reasons some of them don't like it there. If this is true, it is in complete contrast to XJT, where most people will bend over backwards to help you.

Finally, do you live within 2 hours of one of their "authorized" cities (I don't know what they are called)?

 

[rattler]

With all due respect to you, I have to totally disagree - for the reasons you said.





We have not taken a strike vote and have not been released for “self help” by the mediator, therefore, a strike (or illegal job action) next month would be impossible.





And I know many former regional/major furloughees who would never go back.

Personally, my family and I like my being home 7 uninterrupted days at a time and (3) 21 day vacations every year.



This was noted where? Someone is pulling your leg.





Length of duty days and minimum 10 hours of rest are contractually regulated.

Days cannot get longer and they can only call when we are “legal.”





To each his own, but keep in mind, there is a colossal difference in a “regular” charter operation (or vendor) and NetJets.





500 of us at NJA have been here longer than 5 years, and 1400 have been here longer than 3 years.





More importantly, what is quality of life to you/him?



2-3 days at home vs 7 days at home

Same routes every day vs anywhere

Terminal/no food vs catered crew meals (real food)

Jumpseat for 1 vs space positive tickets for the family (free)

>50 people in the back vs <10 (well mannered)

Holiday Inn vs Hilton/Hyatt

Have done both types of flying, I prefere the airline route overall. (I have never worked for Netjets, I worked for a smaller frac.) I will say the type of flying at the Fractionals is much better. Long lay overs in just about everyplace tropical, a rental car, nice hotels, a company card and an expense account. I had so much fun, and I miss it.

The reasons I left, and the reasons I will not return are mostly because in my situation, I felt I could go much further in my career, than I could have flying with a frac. I felt that flying an RJ would open more doors down the road for higher paying jobs. Only time will tell.

NetJets pays more, not alot more though. A 5th year RJ FO at X-Jet makes $37,500 + $5000 per diem + Profit sharing(was only $146 after tax for Dec.) based on 83 hours of flying a month. Not real good. Plus we have a new contract, so for the next 6 years, it will still stink.

"2-3 days at home vs. 7 days at home"

Yeah, but your also gone 7 days. I will never be gone more than 4. I can still have 15 days off a month, it is just broken up. Plus, with our trip trading option we can build our schedules basically however we want to (Disclaimer: It does require a good deal of skill to get good at trip trading). At an airline you have more options with your schedule. If you live at your base you can do all day trips, and be home every night. If you are a commuter you can do all four day trips. It's up to you. I just can't be away that much.

"same routes everyday vs. anywhere"

Yes we see alot of EWR, CLE and IAH but besides that our route structure is so big, I still go to alot of places for the first time. But like I said before, Treasure Cay kicks the heck out of Midland, TX anyday.

"Terminal food vs. Catered food.."

No arguement at all. Our crew meals are a joke. I use to get these increadible steak and cheese sandwiches from Rudy's Catering in TEB, that was great. It cost about $50, but who cares it wasn't my money.

"Jumpseat for 1 vs. Positive Space tickets for family"

That's great that they buy your entire family tickets for vacation travel, we get vacation passes which are still standby, but are of a higher status than regular standbys. An airline advantage is that I can send my family anywhere in the world, anytime I wish. I don't have to be with them or on vaction. I can also jumpseat, you can not.

"50 people in the back vs. <10(well mannered)"

I don't deal with them that's what a F/A is for. If I want to interact I can, but no one really does. I give my PA's and thats about it. I consider this an airline advantage, I don't have to listen to rich people whine about "where's my limo", "I wanted lobster not...", "do you know who I am". I also don't have sit around all day and wait for people. Many passengers are traditionally late.

"Holliday Inn vs. Hilton..."

I already said it. Our hotels are better than most, but the fracs guys stay in some nice places.

"3 21 day vacation a year"

That is great! This year I have 2 which through some creative bidding can be worth 21 days off each.

I like being protected by FAR Part 121 rules, much, much better the 91. Some parts of 91(K) are more restrictive, but last I have heard most fracs were trying to fly under 135 for more flexibility. I have no idea how NetJets does it.

 

[IAHERJ]

Yes, the same cities. Airlines fly hub and spoke, and never outside of the system. You see the same cities, usually more than once per day. Do you ever see all those cities in a week/month? Do you ever fly a week and never visit a city more than once?

Fractionals and corporate don't have a route system. I average 20 different cities per week, usually without visiting a certain city more than once.

Not that either one is better than the other. It's just personal preference. If you like boomerang flying (A-B-A-C-A), go 121. If you want point A-D-X-H-Z, fly private.

Once I got off the Brasilia and into the ERJ, I very rarely saw the same city twice in a month of course discounting CLE/EWR/IAH. I don't think I ever had a layover in the same city twice in a week or even more than twice in a month. In my 5 years there I still didn't hit all the cities in the system.

To each his own. I abviously prefer flying 121 and do so today for AirTran and love every bit of it. I'm just about to start 3rd year pay and will make more this year than in any year since 1998(the year I graduated from college and started with COEX). That's not to say that I wouldn't have loved flying for a frac. I just never grew up wanting to do that like I wanted to fly Douglesses and Boeings.

Good luck and it is nice to meet someone who loves their job. That's what's important.

IAHERJ

 

[ILStoMinimums]

The airline schedule sure sounds better, imo. Can't you manage 7 days off in a row at XJT with some 2-3 years with the company?

 

[BigShotXJTdrvr]

Don't let the fact that our CPA comes up for renewal scare you away from XJET with the thought of massive furloughs. Could it happen? Sure, but the within the CPA, CAL pays XJET a fee per hour to do their flying for them. This number is basically kept a secret between CAL mgmt and XJET mgmt. (best guess is somewhere around $1800-$2500/block hour). Even though we have the highest PILOT costs in the 50 seat sector right now, we also have the some of the LOWEST overall operating costs such as training, maintenance, etc... because we spread our fixed costs over a very large fleet. Sort of a mini-Southwest model. And these efficiencies coupled with our incredible flight completion numbers make us very attractive as an operator to CAL, and therefore our jobs might be more secure than you might think at first glance. Basically, pilot costs are only part of the equation. A company that pays it's pilots less might actually cost more due to non-crew costs.

 

[Secret Squirrel]

I have heard different. The numbers I see are that we have some of the highest cost in the industry. The problem is that we fly too many jets and do not utilize them efficiently. Comair uses its jets around 12 hours a day. We use ours around 7 ( on average). This does not allow us to spread our costs as efficiently and brings up our AVERAGE costs(You know, costs per seat mile). So on paper. We do not look like a very efficient airline. Now I do not know how much this is our fault. Does XJT set the delivery schedule for the jets or does CAL? This also means we could double our flying and not have to take on another jet. This would bring down our costs.

Remeber ther is always an accountant out there that can look at a different set of numbers (or the same)and make you look like a fat inefficient airline.

SS

 

[nimtz]

I have heard different. The numbers I see are that we have some of the highest cost in the industry. The problem is that we fly too many jets and do not utilize them efficiently. Comair uses its jets around 12 hours a day. We use ours around 7 ( on average). This does not allow us to spread our costs as efficiently and brings up our AVERAGE costs(You know, costs per seat mile). So on paper. We do not look like a very efficient airline. Now I do not know how much this is our fault. Does XJT set the delivery schedule for the jets or does CAL? This also means we could double our flying and not have to take on another jet. This would bring down our costs.

Remeber ther is always an accountant out there that can look at a different set of numbers (or the same)and make you look like a fat inefficient airline.

SS

Low aircraft utlilzation is entirely the fault of Continental. They determine every bit of our scheduled revenue flying. Look at Delta's hub structure sometime. They have banks going to the hub at 5 am and leaving the hub past 10 pm. That translates to alot more aircraft effiency. In CAL's system, outside of redeyes and a few exceptions, everyone is done flying by 11 pm. All you commuters know that pain far to well. Please don't get me started on CLE, home of the mandatory three hour sit.

As far as operational costs on the 145, being the launch and best customer has allowed us preferential treatment that has lead to very attractive operating costs on the jet. Although it mine as well be considered a given that CAL will bring in a new small jet provider in 2007.

 

[ILStoMinimums]

Any chance XJT will start flying the planes more like CMR does?

 

[Heavy Set]

Any progress on E170s for COEX? Anyone hear anything? Thought COEX was talking about taking some bound for MDA....

 

[BluDevAv8r]

I have heard different. The numbers I see are that we have some of the highest cost in the industry. The problem is that we fly too many jets and do not utilize them efficiently. Comair uses its jets around 12 hours a day. We use ours around 7 ( on average). This does not allow us to spread our costs as efficiently and brings up our AVERAGE costs(You know, costs per seat mile). So on paper. We do not look like a very efficient airline. Now I do not know how much this is our fault. Does XJT set the delivery schedule for the jets or does CAL? This also means we could double our flying and not have to take on another jet. This would bring down our costs.

Remeber ther is always an accountant out there that can look at a different set of numbers (or the same)and make you look like a fat inefficient airline.

SS

This is slightly incorrect. XJT's aircraft utilization is a little over 8.5 hours per day and will most likely not increase much in the next year or so. Although I have not seen the numbers (CMR doesn't report utilization numbers because it is a subsidiary of Delta), I highly doubt that Comair's aircraft utilization is 12 hours per day. CHQ utilizes its airplanes around 10:45 per day. My guess is that Comair is in the 10 hour to 11 hour range. But a previous poster was correct...Delta has more banks per day (aircraft sit less than at CAL/XJT). Also as someone previously said, under these cost-plus agreements, utilization levels are all determined by the mainline partner.

-Neal

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Any progress on E170s for COEX? Anyone hear anything? Thought COEX was talking about taking some bound for MDA....

Unless something significant changes or occurs (such as CAL's scope clause changing, etc), you won't see any new fleet types at XJT anytime soon.

-Neal

 

[Hawkered]

Love Netjets. Best job I've ever had!

 

[Wasted]

So say Continental schedules another bank or two to bring up the utilization averages. What good does that do? What good is another bank or two if they're at O'dark 30 and half past midnight? How many seat will they fill? What good is a bank of empty planes?

Had Delta considered that maybe they have too many banks? Maybe the smart thing to do here is to cut out a bank or two and then make a commensurate reduction in the fleet size to maintain the healthy utlization average.