XJT vs NetJets

[Scaramunga]

I'm trying to decide between ExpressJet and NetJets. Just looking for everyone's input. There are a lot of pros/cons of each. Thanks!

 

[AviatorTx]

Had I to do all over, I would have stayed corporate and not come to XJT. I'm entrenched now, so it would not be cost effective to go voluntarily start over again at my age, unless it were at a legacy major.

In the long run, the money will probably be about the same. Except the first few years as a broke F/O at XJT. Initially, Net-jets should pay more.

While one can never predict the future, I would say there is more long term job security at Net-jets. First, there is no more flow through to CAL, and it is not likely that we will get another one.

Second, the agreement we have with CAL comes up for renewal in 2007. There is a lot of talk that our flying could be substantially reduced while CAL brings in some more feeders to diversify their feed. There are many at CAL that would like to see their feed structured like Delta's. This means that pilots could be furloughed, or knocked out of the left seat. Who knows. I am concerned about this though.

Third, Mesa and Chitaco are probably not even close to screwing up the industry as much as they are going to in the future. The race to the bottom will continue IMHO.

 

[SLFLYHI]

With all due respect to AviatorTX, I have to totally disagree - although not for the reasons he said.

NetJets is in a major state of turmoil right now. The pilots are on a serious collision course with management over pay, QOL issues, etc. Expect to see a slow-down and picketing during the Berkshire-Hathaway Annual Meeting in Omaha next month.

Also, the NetJets schedule sucks big time. 7 on 7 off is brutal - I have several buddies over there who used to fly at regionals (Mesaba, Eagle, Lakes) who truly miss regional scheduling.

The fractionals are also in a state of decline. The management at NutJets, FrightOptions, and Slotation Shares have noted in recent weeks that the fractional model is unsustainable and they are branching into charter (prepaid flight cards like Marquis), and other avenues which means bad things for pilots - longer work days, middle of the night phone calls, etc.

Now I'm not saying that XJET or any other regional is a panacea - we have issues of our own, to be sure. But I've flown charter including many sub-trips for NutJets, and I honestly prefer regional flying.

As far as pay goes, the regionals will start you at less, but the QOL issues more than outweigh the pay problems in your first few years.

On the job security issue - I don't know a single pilot who hasn't changed jobs at least once (three times for me) in the past 5 years. There is NO job security in aviation unless you are lucky enough to be at SWA. So, long answer to your short question is: how important is QOL to you, and do you want to be an airline or charter pilot?

Good luck in whatever you decide.

 

[Scaramunga]

I just want to be an employed pilot. After three furloughs I've had enough. My magic 8 ball isn't giving me an help on this one.

 

[SLFLYHI]

Wow - three furloughs and you're still at it?! I assume you're indy and have possibilities to come to XJET...I wish my 8-ball were better than yours, but it's not. Unfortunately I think either company could give you the same potential. Who's to say that someone won't undercut XJET's flying when our CPA is up and furloughs could follow...only Larry Kellner I guess.

Same could very easily happen at NutJets - the market for fractionals has peaked and is on the way down. Nothing to say that NutJets couldn't find itself in the same declining revenue situation soon.

Have you thought about real estate? (just kidding)

Tough choices. I hope that if you come to XJET, that we'll get to fly together someday - beers are on me!

 

[Freight Dog]

Scaramunga, I am looking to get out of airline flying altogether and go into fractional/charter and eventually contract flying. Airlines are just no longer worth it, IMO. Sure, your lifestyle is great until your management comes to you asking for concessions because the fuel price went up and they *CAN'T* pass it onto the consumer or file Chapter 11 and then worry about judges, etc. Then, you start worrying about the survival of your company, and whether or not you'll make it, get furloughed, about the quality of investors, are they in to rape the airline and then leave it in a gutter, or are they interested in making it run? This is all because of the Wal-Mart mentality of the airlines and the flying public. Your John Q. Expedia shopper doesn't charter a Hawker or a Citation to fly from NY to FL. He/she will take JetBlue or SWA or Airtran or whoever is the cheapest at the time and go to Nascar and rub elbows with Tom D. Travelocity. This airline race to the bottom is our fault in bending over every time the management asks for concessions instead of saying no and forcing them to actually pass on the increased costs to the consumer. All in all, look at the quality of your typical airline passenger these days and compare that with the 70's and 80's. Hell, even the early 90's. Look at it now... people think it's their constitutional right to have a super cheap airfare and all the amenities, and the airline management says you have to subsidize that through your pay/work rules/retirement or go out of business.

Now, having said all that... ask yourself. Who flies on charter/fractional outfits? Something to ponder...

 

[Propsync]

The line in Vegas has XJET by four over Netjets. XJET is healthy and has a new contract. Wait, what was the question? I hate VS. questions. Like the some of the people on this board could tell their a#$ from a hole in the ground. Flip a coin, that's my advise.

Actually, my question is this: Have they both given you job offers or are you wondering who to apply to? Let's start there.

 

[On Your Six]

Both start off at very low pay - I think COEX is even lower than NJA which is hard to believe. If you look at variety of flying, NJA is better but COEX is pretty good - COEX serves something like 20+ cities in Mexico and everywhere between Palm Springs and Halifax. COEX offers the most variety of any regional out there. Add to that the opportunity to fly nice airplanes like the EMB-145XR and maybe the E170 eventually and COEX is a pretty strong choice among regionals.

Having said that, NJA flying is entirely different type of flying. I believe NJA will get an improved contract soon. Flying nice, new aircraft on a 7/7 schedule (when you can bid it), and hopefully a better contract soon will make NJA a much better place to be. I have a number of friends at NJA and they like everything except the pay issue (not surprising). Many people feel that NJA will survive the fractional shakeout (Flight Options might not) and it will be a long term player. Do you know what aircraft type you would fly at NJA? That might help the decision...

I think both are good choices - let us know which you choose. Good luck.

 

[Heavy Set]

Do you really WANT to fly for another regional? Do you mind loading baggage? You need to consider these types of questions. I say go to the place where you can get PIC the fastest so that you can move on to SWA, AirTran or JetBlue... What would you fly at Netjets?

 

[NJA Capt]

...I wish my 8-ball were better than yours, but it's not.

- the market for fractionals has peaked and is on the way down. Nothing to say that NutJets couldn't find itself in the same declining revenue situation soon.

I think you need a new 8-Ball.
I hate to break the news to you but the fractional market is not on its way down, it's still going up. Slower than 99-01, but still growing. Matter of fact, NetJets is working on Supplemental 121 status and a few more Boeings as we speak. I can't speak for our competitors financial strength, but NJAs is very healthy. 400 aircraft in the US, with 500+ still on order.
The irony is the more people that the airlines tick off, or file Ch 11, the more the fractionals grow.

Keep up the good work


http://netjets.com/News%20and%20Info/pdfs/NetJets%20Fast%20Facts%2001-05.pdf

PS....I like it when people make the baggage loading comments. We aren't hand loading a 777 guys. Our normal load is 1 or 2 people on a day trip with carry ons.

 

[NJA Capt]

With all due respect to AviatorTX, I have to totally disagree -

With all due respect to you, I have to totally disagree - for the reasons you said.

Expect to see a slow-down and picketing during the Berkshire-Hathaway Annual Meeting in Omaha next month.

We have not taken a strike vote and have not been released for “self help” by the mediator, therefore, a strike (or illegal job action) next month would be impossible.

7 on 7 off is brutal - I have several buddies over there who used to fly at regionals … who truly miss regional scheduling.

And I know many former regional/major furloughees who would never go back.

Personally, my family and I like my being home 7 uninterrupted days at a time and (3) 21 day vacations every year.

The fractionals are also in a state of decline.

The management …. have noted in recent weeks that the fractional model is unsustainable

This was noted where? Someone is pulling your leg.

…longer work days

…middle of the night phone calls, etc.

Length of duty days and minimum 10 hours of rest are contractually regulated.

Days cannot get longer and they can only call when we are “legal.”

… I've flown charter including many sub-trips for NetJets, and I honestly prefer regional flying.

To each his own, but keep in mind, there is a colossal difference in a “regular” charter operation (or vendor) and NetJets.

…I don't know a single pilot who hasn't changed jobs at least once (three times for me) in the past 5 years.

500 of us at NJA have been here longer than 5 years, and 1400 have been here longer than 3 years.

how important is QOL to you

More importantly, what is quality of life to you/him?



2-3 days at home vs 7 days at home

Same routes every day vs anywhere

Terminal/no food vs catered crew meals (real food)

Jumpseat for 1 vs space positive tickets for the family (free)

>50 people in the back vs <10 (well mannered)

Holiday Inn vs Hilton/Hyatt

 

[PCL_128]

Time2Spare,

What's so bad about 7 on 7 off? To me it seems much better than a typical regional schedule of 5 on 3 off that you would probably have for a while when you are junior. Personally, I hate the regional scheduling. I'm a senior FO so my schedules are better than most, but I would still prefer being home for 7 days at a time rather than the 2 days off that screw scheduling sometimes throws in the middle of our lines at Pinch-a-Nickle.

I guess it's different for everyone, but if it was me and I had to start over somewhere, I would go corporate, fractional, or cargo before I ever even thought of going to another regional. But like I said, that's just me. Good luck with whatever decision you make Scaramunga.

 

[IAHERJ]

I don't remember staying in very many Holiday Inn's when I was at COEX. In fact we stayd in more Hilton's/Millinium's/Hyatt's/Omni/etc. Not to mention the Mexico hotels which were always nice for those 33 hour layovers. As far as flying to the same places everyday, you've got to be kidding. 22 cities in Mexico and about 7 in Canada alone, not to mention every major city from LAX to Portland ME. SMall cities like Lafayette LA were some of the more exciting layovers I remember and if I'm going to have a sit at an airport, it sure is nice to be attached to a jetway and have the opportunity to walk through a concourse and shop and eat at a restaurant rather than grab a courtesy car and go off looking for someplace to eat. By the way, Expressjet has crew meals unlike most other regionals.

I can't compare the two companies very well as I only worked for Express. I just wanted to offer some facts and memories of life at Express. If I had to start all over again today, I'd still put Expressjet as my #1 choice of carrier to fly for.

IAHERJ

 

[bayoubandit]

I'll never forget Savanah overnights. Jeez I miss those.

I will second what IAHERJ said. I can honestly look back at my years at Coex and say it is well worth working there.

 

[NJA Capt]

As far as flying to the same places everyday, you've got to be kidding....every major city from LAX to Portland ME.

Yes, the same cities. Airlines fly hub and spoke, and never outside of the system. You see the same cities, usually more than once per day. Do you ever see all those cities in a week/month? Do you ever fly a week and never visit a city more than once?

Fractionals and corporate don't have a route system. I average 20 different cities per week, usually without visiting a certain city more than once.

Not that either one is better than the other. It's just personal preference. If you like boomerang flying (A-B-A-C-A), go 121. If you want point A-D-X-H-Z, fly private.