XJT vs NetJets

[Scaramunga]

I'm trying to decide between ExpressJet and NetJets. Just looking for everyone's input. There are a lot of pros/cons of each. Thanks!

 

[AviatorTx]

Had I to do all over, I would have stayed corporate and not come to XJT. I'm entrenched now, so it would not be cost effective to go voluntarily start over again at my age, unless it were at a legacy major.

In the long run, the money will probably be about the same. Except the first few years as a broke F/O at XJT. Initially, Net-jets should pay more.

While one can never predict the future, I would say there is more long term job security at Net-jets. First, there is no more flow through to CAL, and it is not likely that we will get another one.

Second, the agreement we have with CAL comes up for renewal in 2007. There is a lot of talk that our flying could be substantially reduced while CAL brings in some more feeders to diversify their feed. There are many at CAL that would like to see their feed structured like Delta's. This means that pilots could be furloughed, or knocked out of the left seat. Who knows. I am concerned about this though.

Third, Mesa and Chitaco are probably not even close to screwing up the industry as much as they are going to in the future. The race to the bottom will continue IMHO.

 

[SLFLYHI]

With all due respect to AviatorTX, I have to totally disagree - although not for the reasons he said.

NetJets is in a major state of turmoil right now. The pilots are on a serious collision course with management over pay, QOL issues, etc. Expect to see a slow-down and picketing during the Berkshire-Hathaway Annual Meeting in Omaha next month.

Also, the NetJets schedule sucks big time. 7 on 7 off is brutal - I have several buddies over there who used to fly at regionals (Mesaba, Eagle, Lakes) who truly miss regional scheduling.

The fractionals are also in a state of decline. The management at NutJets, FrightOptions, and Slotation Shares have noted in recent weeks that the fractional model is unsustainable and they are branching into charter (prepaid flight cards like Marquis), and other avenues which means bad things for pilots - longer work days, middle of the night phone calls, etc.

Now I'm not saying that XJET or any other regional is a panacea - we have issues of our own, to be sure. But I've flown charter including many sub-trips for NutJets, and I honestly prefer regional flying.

As far as pay goes, the regionals will start you at less, but the QOL issues more than outweigh the pay problems in your first few years.

On the job security issue - I don't know a single pilot who hasn't changed jobs at least once (three times for me) in the past 5 years. There is NO job security in aviation unless you are lucky enough to be at SWA. So, long answer to your short question is: how important is QOL to you, and do you want to be an airline or charter pilot?

Good luck in whatever you decide.

 

[Scaramunga]

I just want to be an employed pilot. After three furloughs I've had enough. My magic 8 ball isn't giving me an help on this one.

 

[SLFLYHI]

Wow - three furloughs and you're still at it?! I assume you're indy and have possibilities to come to XJET...I wish my 8-ball were better than yours, but it's not. Unfortunately I think either company could give you the same potential. Who's to say that someone won't undercut XJET's flying when our CPA is up and furloughs could follow...only Larry Kellner I guess.

Same could very easily happen at NutJets - the market for fractionals has peaked and is on the way down. Nothing to say that NutJets couldn't find itself in the same declining revenue situation soon.

Have you thought about real estate? (just kidding)

Tough choices. I hope that if you come to XJET, that we'll get to fly together someday - beers are on me!

 

[Freight Dog]

Scaramunga, I am looking to get out of airline flying altogether and go into fractional/charter and eventually contract flying. Airlines are just no longer worth it, IMO. Sure, your lifestyle is great until your management comes to you asking for concessions because the fuel price went up and they *CAN'T* pass it onto the consumer or file Chapter 11 and then worry about judges, etc. Then, you start worrying about the survival of your company, and whether or not you'll make it, get furloughed, about the quality of investors, are they in to rape the airline and then leave it in a gutter, or are they interested in making it run? This is all because of the Wal-Mart mentality of the airlines and the flying public. Your John Q. Expedia shopper doesn't charter a Hawker or a Citation to fly from NY to FL. He/she will take JetBlue or SWA or Airtran or whoever is the cheapest at the time and go to Nascar and rub elbows with Tom D. Travelocity. This airline race to the bottom is our fault in bending over every time the management asks for concessions instead of saying no and forcing them to actually pass on the increased costs to the consumer. All in all, look at the quality of your typical airline passenger these days and compare that with the 70's and 80's. Hell, even the early 90's. Look at it now... people think it's their constitutional right to have a super cheap airfare and all the amenities, and the airline management says you have to subsidize that through your pay/work rules/retirement or go out of business.

Now, having said all that... ask yourself. Who flies on charter/fractional outfits? Something to ponder...

 

[Propsync]

The line in Vegas has XJET by four over Netjets. XJET is healthy and has a new contract. Wait, what was the question? I hate VS. questions. Like the some of the people on this board could tell their a#$ from a hole in the ground. Flip a coin, that's my advise.

Actually, my question is this: Have they both given you job offers or are you wondering who to apply to? Let's start there.

 

[On Your Six]

Both start off at very low pay - I think COEX is even lower than NJA which is hard to believe. If you look at variety of flying, NJA is better but COEX is pretty good - COEX serves something like 20+ cities in Mexico and everywhere between Palm Springs and Halifax. COEX offers the most variety of any regional out there. Add to that the opportunity to fly nice airplanes like the EMB-145XR and maybe the E170 eventually and COEX is a pretty strong choice among regionals.

Having said that, NJA flying is entirely different type of flying. I believe NJA will get an improved contract soon. Flying nice, new aircraft on a 7/7 schedule (when you can bid it), and hopefully a better contract soon will make NJA a much better place to be. I have a number of friends at NJA and they like everything except the pay issue (not surprising). Many people feel that NJA will survive the fractional shakeout (Flight Options might not) and it will be a long term player. Do you know what aircraft type you would fly at NJA? That might help the decision...

I think both are good choices - let us know which you choose. Good luck.

 

[Heavy Set]

Do you really WANT to fly for another regional? Do you mind loading baggage? You need to consider these types of questions. I say go to the place where you can get PIC the fastest so that you can move on to SWA, AirTran or JetBlue... What would you fly at Netjets?

 

[NJA Capt]

...I wish my 8-ball were better than yours, but it's not.

- the market for fractionals has peaked and is on the way down. Nothing to say that NutJets couldn't find itself in the same declining revenue situation soon.

I think you need a new 8-Ball.
I hate to break the news to you but the fractional market is not on its way down, it's still going up. Slower than 99-01, but still growing. Matter of fact, NetJets is working on Supplemental 121 status and a few more Boeings as we speak. I can't speak for our competitors financial strength, but NJAs is very healthy. 400 aircraft in the US, with 500+ still on order.
The irony is the more people that the airlines tick off, or file Ch 11, the more the fractionals grow.

Keep up the good work


http://netjets.com/News%20and%20Info/pdfs/NetJets%20Fast%20Facts%2001-05.pdf

PS....I like it when people make the baggage loading comments. We aren't hand loading a 777 guys. Our normal load is 1 or 2 people on a day trip with carry ons.

 

[NJA Capt]

With all due respect to AviatorTX, I have to totally disagree -

With all due respect to you, I have to totally disagree - for the reasons you said.

Expect to see a slow-down and picketing during the Berkshire-Hathaway Annual Meeting in Omaha next month.

We have not taken a strike vote and have not been released for “self help” by the mediator, therefore, a strike (or illegal job action) next month would be impossible.

7 on 7 off is brutal - I have several buddies over there who used to fly at regionals … who truly miss regional scheduling.

And I know many former regional/major furloughees who would never go back.

Personally, my family and I like my being home 7 uninterrupted days at a time and (3) 21 day vacations every year.

The fractionals are also in a state of decline.

The management …. have noted in recent weeks that the fractional model is unsustainable

This was noted where? Someone is pulling your leg.

…longer work days

…middle of the night phone calls, etc.

Length of duty days and minimum 10 hours of rest are contractually regulated.

Days cannot get longer and they can only call when we are “legal.”

… I've flown charter including many sub-trips for NetJets, and I honestly prefer regional flying.

To each his own, but keep in mind, there is a colossal difference in a “regular” charter operation (or vendor) and NetJets.

…I don't know a single pilot who hasn't changed jobs at least once (three times for me) in the past 5 years.

500 of us at NJA have been here longer than 5 years, and 1400 have been here longer than 3 years.

how important is QOL to you

More importantly, what is quality of life to you/him?



2-3 days at home vs 7 days at home

Same routes every day vs anywhere

Terminal/no food vs catered crew meals (real food)

Jumpseat for 1 vs space positive tickets for the family (free)

>50 people in the back vs <10 (well mannered)

Holiday Inn vs Hilton/Hyatt

 

[PCL_128]

Time2Spare,

What's so bad about 7 on 7 off? To me it seems much better than a typical regional schedule of 5 on 3 off that you would probably have for a while when you are junior. Personally, I hate the regional scheduling. I'm a senior FO so my schedules are better than most, but I would still prefer being home for 7 days at a time rather than the 2 days off that screw scheduling sometimes throws in the middle of our lines at Pinch-a-Nickle.

I guess it's different for everyone, but if it was me and I had to start over somewhere, I would go corporate, fractional, or cargo before I ever even thought of going to another regional. But like I said, that's just me. Good luck with whatever decision you make Scaramunga.

 

[IAHERJ]

I don't remember staying in very many Holiday Inn's when I was at COEX. In fact we stayd in more Hilton's/Millinium's/Hyatt's/Omni/etc. Not to mention the Mexico hotels which were always nice for those 33 hour layovers. As far as flying to the same places everyday, you've got to be kidding. 22 cities in Mexico and about 7 in Canada alone, not to mention every major city from LAX to Portland ME. SMall cities like Lafayette LA were some of the more exciting layovers I remember and if I'm going to have a sit at an airport, it sure is nice to be attached to a jetway and have the opportunity to walk through a concourse and shop and eat at a restaurant rather than grab a courtesy car and go off looking for someplace to eat. By the way, Expressjet has crew meals unlike most other regionals.

I can't compare the two companies very well as I only worked for Express. I just wanted to offer some facts and memories of life at Express. If I had to start all over again today, I'd still put Expressjet as my #1 choice of carrier to fly for.

IAHERJ

 

[bayoubandit]

I'll never forget Savanah overnights. Jeez I miss those.

I will second what IAHERJ said. I can honestly look back at my years at Coex and say it is well worth working there.

 

[NJA Capt]

As far as flying to the same places everyday, you've got to be kidding....every major city from LAX to Portland ME.

Yes, the same cities. Airlines fly hub and spoke, and never outside of the system. You see the same cities, usually more than once per day. Do you ever see all those cities in a week/month? Do you ever fly a week and never visit a city more than once?

Fractionals and corporate don't have a route system. I average 20 different cities per week, usually without visiting a certain city more than once.

Not that either one is better than the other. It's just personal preference. If you like boomerang flying (A-B-A-C-A), go 121. If you want point A-D-X-H-Z, fly private.

 

[nimtz]

I'll never forget Savanah overnights. Jeez I miss those.

For some reason I can't seem to remember my SAV overnights...

This thread is all about lifestyle. Some of us can do corporate others can't, but it is getting to the point of nitpicking over who has the cooler flying job. For me the travel benefits and vacation policy I've had at Xjet have made it well worth spending time here. I guarentee you I couldn't of gone the places I've gone for as cheap as I have if I worked for Mr. Buffet.

Then again for the betterment of mankind I don't have a wife or kids. Throw that in the equation I would say stay away from Xjet. At least upgrade time is pathetic at both places. In this day in age there is no safe answer and my opinon is as worthless as everybody elses.

 

[ATRedneck]

I average 20 different cities per week, usually without visiting a certain city more than once.

That sounds too much like work to me. And it was. I flew corporate and couldn't get out fast enough.

I average about 12 legs a week, with a hub at one end of each leg, so that's what... six (non-hub) places a week.

I don't sit in FBOs for hours on end waiting for passengers who can't tell time or who stopped to get a bite while I waited at the airport, hungry, but afraid if I ran down the street to grab a bite they'd show up.

I've never thrown a bag that wasn't mine (or my crew's), never ran a dustbuster through the cabin, never brewed coffee, schlepped ice, cleaned the blue room, or had to kiss some bigwig's pompous a$$.

Basically it comes down to being a limo driver or a bus driver. A limo driver has a little luxury, or at least gets to see luxury behind him while he's just the hired help. He has to deal with people who think the world revolves around them and must operate by their schedules. If the boss needs to go to Otumwa, Iowa in the dead of night, you're going. And the only place in town to stay is the Super 8 Motel by the off-ramp. And forget about a beer at dinner... the boss just might have to jet off to some garden spot like Pascagoula or Hobbs or Liberal in an hour.

Driving a bus isn't pretty. There's no corporate-caliber catering leftovers to pick at when you arrive (the one perk I miss!), but the folks in the back better sit down, shut up, and hang on, because we have a schedule to keep. I know where I'm going, when I'm going there, and if you're not on the airplane when it's time to push, tough noogies. Catch the next one.

 

[upndsky]

I think both have good and bad points. When Midway went bust, a bunch of my friends went to Netjets. About half love it, the other half hate it.

I fly for XJT and I like it better than the very limited amount of passenger charter I've done in the past. I certainly don't miss sitting at some podunk airport for hours with no car and nothing to do. Also, XJT has a vast route system, so I may be in Portland, Maine, one night and Mexico City the next. Even though I'm EWR based, I may never see EWR except for the first and last leg of my pairing. It's also nice to fly to airports where there's an ILS and a long runway 99% of the time. I don't have to clean the airplane (although I will help the flight attendant at an outstation turn as a courtesy) and I don't have to suck up to some rich smarta$$. On the other hand, the 7-on, 7-off does sound nice, and while we fly to a fixed number of cities, at Netjets you'll have to opportunity to go to some really cool places (and sh!tty ones as well).

From my friends at Netjets, I have heard that the company can be very draconian and inflexible, one of the main reasons some of them don't like it there. If this is true, it is in complete contrast to XJT, where most people will bend over backwards to help you.

Finally, do you live within 2 hours of one of their "authorized" cities (I don't know what they are called)?

 

[rattler]

With all due respect to you, I have to totally disagree - for the reasons you said.





We have not taken a strike vote and have not been released for “self help” by the mediator, therefore, a strike (or illegal job action) next month would be impossible.





And I know many former regional/major furloughees who would never go back.

Personally, my family and I like my being home 7 uninterrupted days at a time and (3) 21 day vacations every year.



This was noted where? Someone is pulling your leg.





Length of duty days and minimum 10 hours of rest are contractually regulated.

Days cannot get longer and they can only call when we are “legal.”





To each his own, but keep in mind, there is a colossal difference in a “regular” charter operation (or vendor) and NetJets.





500 of us at NJA have been here longer than 5 years, and 1400 have been here longer than 3 years.





More importantly, what is quality of life to you/him?



2-3 days at home vs 7 days at home

Same routes every day vs anywhere

Terminal/no food vs catered crew meals (real food)

Jumpseat for 1 vs space positive tickets for the family (free)

>50 people in the back vs <10 (well mannered)

Holiday Inn vs Hilton/Hyatt

Have done both types of flying, I prefere the airline route overall. (I have never worked for Netjets, I worked for a smaller frac.) I will say the type of flying at the Fractionals is much better. Long lay overs in just about everyplace tropical, a rental car, nice hotels, a company card and an expense account. I had so much fun, and I miss it.

The reasons I left, and the reasons I will not return are mostly because in my situation, I felt I could go much further in my career, than I could have flying with a frac. I felt that flying an RJ would open more doors down the road for higher paying jobs. Only time will tell.

NetJets pays more, not alot more though. A 5th year RJ FO at X-Jet makes $37,500 + $5000 per diem + Profit sharing(was only $146 after tax for Dec.) based on 83 hours of flying a month. Not real good. Plus we have a new contract, so for the next 6 years, it will still stink.

"2-3 days at home vs. 7 days at home"

Yeah, but your also gone 7 days. I will never be gone more than 4. I can still have 15 days off a month, it is just broken up. Plus, with our trip trading option we can build our schedules basically however we want to (Disclaimer: It does require a good deal of skill to get good at trip trading). At an airline you have more options with your schedule. If you live at your base you can do all day trips, and be home every night. If you are a commuter you can do all four day trips. It's up to you. I just can't be away that much.

"same routes everyday vs. anywhere"

Yes we see alot of EWR, CLE and IAH but besides that our route structure is so big, I still go to alot of places for the first time. But like I said before, Treasure Cay kicks the heck out of Midland, TX anyday.

"Terminal food vs. Catered food.."

No arguement at all. Our crew meals are a joke. I use to get these increadible steak and cheese sandwiches from Rudy's Catering in TEB, that was great. It cost about $50, but who cares it wasn't my money.

"Jumpseat for 1 vs. Positive Space tickets for family"

That's great that they buy your entire family tickets for vacation travel, we get vacation passes which are still standby, but are of a higher status than regular standbys. An airline advantage is that I can send my family anywhere in the world, anytime I wish. I don't have to be with them or on vaction. I can also jumpseat, you can not.

"50 people in the back vs. <10(well mannered)"

I don't deal with them that's what a F/A is for. If I want to interact I can, but no one really does. I give my PA's and thats about it. I consider this an airline advantage, I don't have to listen to rich people whine about "where's my limo", "I wanted lobster not...", "do you know who I am". I also don't have sit around all day and wait for people. Many passengers are traditionally late.

"Holliday Inn vs. Hilton..."

I already said it. Our hotels are better than most, but the fracs guys stay in some nice places.

"3 21 day vacation a year"

That is great! This year I have 2 which through some creative bidding can be worth 21 days off each.

I like being protected by FAR Part 121 rules, much, much better the 91. Some parts of 91(K) are more restrictive, but last I have heard most fracs were trying to fly under 135 for more flexibility. I have no idea how NetJets does it.

 

[IAHERJ]

Yes, the same cities. Airlines fly hub and spoke, and never outside of the system. You see the same cities, usually more than once per day. Do you ever see all those cities in a week/month? Do you ever fly a week and never visit a city more than once?

Fractionals and corporate don't have a route system. I average 20 different cities per week, usually without visiting a certain city more than once.

Not that either one is better than the other. It's just personal preference. If you like boomerang flying (A-B-A-C-A), go 121. If you want point A-D-X-H-Z, fly private.

Once I got off the Brasilia and into the ERJ, I very rarely saw the same city twice in a month of course discounting CLE/EWR/IAH. I don't think I ever had a layover in the same city twice in a week or even more than twice in a month. In my 5 years there I still didn't hit all the cities in the system.

To each his own. I abviously prefer flying 121 and do so today for AirTran and love every bit of it. I'm just about to start 3rd year pay and will make more this year than in any year since 1998(the year I graduated from college and started with COEX). That's not to say that I wouldn't have loved flying for a frac. I just never grew up wanting to do that like I wanted to fly Douglesses and Boeings.

Good luck and it is nice to meet someone who loves their job. That's what's important.

IAHERJ