XJ pilots: Here is the lube, stand by for the big. . .

[KL24]

Mesaba is actually quite profitable, but all of the money goes to MAIR, which loses money on other ventures such as Big Sky. The truth is, MAIR actually has tremendous amounts of cash on hand. I believe the number is somewhere around $120 million, but I could be off by $10 million or so.

And the cost to acquire and run Big Sky at a loss has only been around $12 million according to MAIR. So please let's not turn this into, "all of our money is funding a losing airline." There's still $108 million of your money in their bank and probably a lot more. MAIR has done almost nothing for both companies.

 

[PCL_128]

Not quite.

The pilots voted to strike in '03. When the deadline came due in '04, everyone was ready and willing to walk. The MEC decided to "keep negotiating", not the pilot group.

Why doesn't the MEC get some balls and tell the company to go to hell before we ever have to vote? The strong ALPA types always blame the pilot group when they have the far majority of the power in such matters.

How can you say "don't blame the MEC" when you have no idea what you are saying?

I do have a very good idea what I'm saying. In the end, it's all up to the pilot group. I agree that striking at the midnight deadline was probably the best idea, but the MEC apparently wanted to give the pilot group a chance to decide on that TA. If you and the rest of the pilot group weren't happy with it, then a solid NO vote would suffice and the strike would most likely have commenced immediately. Again, the MEC's powers are limited. The pilot group almost always has the final say.

 

[Simon Says]

The reason Mesaba Aviation is in BK but not Pinnacle is very simple: MAIR Holdings funnels all of Mesaba Aviation's profits back into the MAIR bank accounts and leaves Mesaba Aviation with virtually no cash as a buffer. Pinnacle on the other hand keeps all of it's profits without having to send any of it to some nebulous holding company. As a result, Pinnacle had $66 million in the bank to cushion the blow of not receiving the payments from NWA after the BK filing. Mesaba didn't have that cushion because their profits were sitting in MAIR bank accounts. Mesaba is actually quite profitable, but all of the money goes to MAIR, which loses money on other ventures such as Big Sky. The truth is, MAIR actually has tremendous amounts of cash on hand. I believe the number is somewhere around $120 million, but I could be off by $10 million or so.

What you said is quite true.

I think 9E would of had a much more difficult time creating smoke and mirrors to fall into bankrupcy. But you do make a very good point of 9E not having a holdings company to force a bankrupcy.

 

[Simon Says]

So can't we count of those of you in the MEC to stand firm and tell the company to shove it or are we looking at another roll-over-and-take-it scenario?

Talk to a union rep to get the story of how hands are tied in Bankrupcy. Basically if we don't agree to any kind of concessions it will fall upon the judge to impose concessions on how he sees fit. So, if the reps say "shove it" the company will say "fine" and then go to the judge and say the Unions are not negotiating and here is the list of concessions that we need. Then the judge will impose a contract on us as he sees fit.

I know what you are going to say next....."Strike"

Well, ALPA believes we are on firm legal ground to strike while the company does not. So, once all the hoops have been jumped through to strike, the company will file an injunction to keep us at work until this legal aurgument can be hammered out in the courts. And rest assured this could take months if not years to determine if a pilot group can strike if a contract was impossed on us.

BANKRUPCY IS FAR DIFFERENT THAN SECTION 6 NEGOTIATIONS.

 

[Terry Hunter]

At the strike deadline, No XJ planes were flown until a T.A. was reached.

XJ Mgmt- You find it acceptable to make the pilot group wait 2 years for a new contract, and now you want a new contract within 1 month??? Do you really think we'd forget about the way pilots were treated throughout that time?

Carl Pohlad, Chairman of MAIR is paid $300,000 for his service. That is absolutely rediculous, and underscores how financially irresponsible XJ is all around.

The BK filing is so full of fakery in so many ways. You have two airlines in your house, and the one making money declares bankruptcy???

Lastly, this current contract was by no means what the XJ pilots felt they deserved. But many bought in knowing that growth was on the way, hence the label "Growth Contract" comforted people knowing that compensation was to be in faster advancement, better QOL, etc. The contract works - it allows XJ to make money, which they have been doing. A few late payments and threats that haven't come true YET do not make a bankruptcy.

No concessions. None. Time to force this management team to get off their arses, and run this company with some brains.

 

[Butters]

Talk to a union rep to get the story of how hands are tied in Bankrupcy. Basically if we don't agree to any kind of concessions it will fall upon the judge to impose concessions on how he sees fit. So, if the reps say "shove it" the company will say "fine" and then go to the judge and say the Unions are not negotiating and here is the list of concessions that we need. Then the judge will impose a contract on us as he sees fit.

I know what you are going to say next....."Strike"

Well, ALPA believes we are on firm legal ground to strike while the company does not. So, once all the hoops have been jumped through to strike, the company will file an injunction to keep us at work until this legal aurgument can be hammered out in the courts. And rest assured this could take months if not years to determine if a pilot group can strike if a contract was impossed on us.

BANKRUPCY IS FAR DIFFERENT THAN SECTION 6 NEGOTIATIONS.

I understand and agree with everything you are saying.

I, along with many of my fellow XJ pilots, are so fed up that we are willing to let the judge decide. We will probably get hit hard but I would rather some old judge decide that than giving Spanjers the power to do it.

Either way we get screwed.

 

[Simon Says]

Don't get me wrong either....I will vote no to any kind of concessions.

 

[tripacer]

I understand and agree with everything you are saying.

I, along with many of my fellow XJ pilots, are so fed up that we are willing to let the judge decide. We will probably get hit hard but I would rather some old judge decide that than giving Spanjers the power to do it.

Either way we get screwed.

Butters

The answer to your question regarding the pilots group vote is this:

There is NO memrat for a concessionary contract. And here is why.

First, I have talked to reps and they wont confirm nor deny MEMRAT for concessions. Which requires me to think back to our short history of this process.

We NEVER had MEMRAT before the 04' Contract. It was a few strong LEC reps (who are no longer here) that pushed for it. That MEMRAT vote, was for that contract only!! Unless it was written into the Bylaws permanently, which it wasn't, then this MEC can do whatever they feel "is in the best interest of the pilots group (the best interest of THEMSELVES).

Also if you'll remember that after the Contract was pushed thru by our leaderless MEC, we wanted permanent MEMRAT and the option to MEMRAT ANY LOA that came down the pike. Our MEC said NO, impossible! Reason: They didnt have time to pass along every contingency that might arise and there might be some that were time sensitive. BULL SH*T.

So you're right it'll probably come down to a judge, but it'll probably come down to Wee-chor voting for 20% simply because Woerthless told him to do so.

If you're an LEC/MEC rep reading this post and I am wrong, call me on this and tell me I am wrong.

Here's another way of looking at it. If the MEC is silent, besides the Payday Messages, then you know something negative is about to happen. Duane Woerthless is not going to let XJ pilots NOT take paycuts, when his own pilots just took a 23% pay cut exactly 1 week ago.

 

[tripacer]

Why doesn't the MEC get some balls and tell the company to go to hell before we ever have to vote?

Because our MEC Chair has no-balls - or a spine. He gets his marching orders from ALPA National, and his minnions follow him like the pied-piper, no questions asked. Why do you think that after we voted to strike in 03', he decided to "keep negotiating". ALPA National told him to. He is the best used-car salesman I have ever seen. It's a disgrace!

 

[kmox29]

Because our MEC Chair has no-balls - or a spine. He gets his marching orders from ALPA National, and his minnions follow him like the pied-piper, no questions asked. Why do you think that after we voted to strike in 03', he decided to "keep negotiating". ALPA National told him to. He is the best used-car salesman I have ever seen. It's a disgrace!

May I ask what (besides ranting on Flighinfo.com) are you doing to fix this problem? Or are you like a lot of people and just point fingers, whine, and complain. Whenever the nominations come up for LEC reps, I see VERY few people (maybe 2 or 3?) on the ballot.

If you do speak out at union meetings, vote in the elections, and volunteer your time to the union, I apologize. I did not mean to generalize you. I just see SO much whining and SO little action from those whiners.

I say Fox-Uniform to our SLT (typing those letters makes me want to puke). Let the bankrupcy court ream me. At least I'll have a fresh face to look at while I'm being sodomized.

 

[tripacer]

May I ask what (besides ranting on Flighinfo.com) are you doing to fix this problem? Or are you like a lot of people and just point fingers, whine, and complain. Whenever the nominations come up for LEC reps, I see VERY few people (maybe 2 or 3?) on the ballot.

If you do speak out at union meetings, vote in the elections, and volunteer your time to the union, I apologize. I did not mean to generalize you. I just see SO much whining and SO little action from those whiners.

I say Fox-Uniform to our SLT (typing those letters makes me want to puke). Let the bankrupcy court ream me. At least I'll have a fresh face to look at while I'm being sodomized.

The bankruptcy court IS going to ream you, me, and the rest of us. It's all a done deal. Now we are all playing musical chairs and their wont be a chair for everyone. If you've ever volunteered or been involved with the union, you would know it's a rigged game. This banter against "the whiners" is used by our leaders and their followers to deflect the fact that they are not looking our for the groups best interest as a whole.

Let me ask you this - if you feel like you are going to get reamed and you wanna tell the SLT to F.U., why don't you as a Captain get together with other captains in your domicile and march up to ALPA HQ in MSP and demand Wee-chor do his frickin' job and represent us like we are demanding him to do. I guarantee if he thought for one second that he was about to get the boot from his captains, he would grow a spine. 100 Captains putting pressure on this MEC would be much more effective then the entire FO's raising hell.

And, I'll tell you what I told a NWA DC9 captain on this board who was bitching about "the whiners", but seemed to be waiting around for the sky to fall - quivering under his rock. - You're a Captain - ACT LIKE ONE.

 

[PCL_128]

The bankruptcy court IS going to ream you, me, and the rest of us. It's all a done deal. Now we are all playing musical chairs and their wont be a chair for everyone. If you've ever volunteered or been involved with the union, you would know it's a rigged game. This banter against "the whiners" is used by our leaders and their followers to deflect the fact that they are not looking our for the groups best interest as a whole.

Let me ask you this - if you feel like you are going to get reamed and you wanna tell the SLT to F.U., why don't you as a Captain get together with other captains in your domicile and march up to ALPA HQ in MSP and demand Wee-chor do his frickin' job and represent us like we are demanding him to do. I guarantee if he thought for one second that he was about to get the boot from his captains, he would grow a spine. 100 Captains putting pressure on this MEC would be much more effective then the entire FO's raising hell.

And, I'll tell you what I told a NWA DC9 captain on this board who was bitching about "the whiners", but seemed to be waiting around for the sky to fall - quivering under his rock. - You're a Captain - ACT LIKE ONE.

I don't know what you think being a "Captain" has to do with anything. FOs have just as much power to bring resolutions at the LEC level that Captains do. If you have a problem with your union leadership, then show up at the next Local Council meeting (bylaws require there to be one at least every quarter) and propose a resolution to recall your status reps. Forward the resolution to ALPA National and your LEC Chairman is required to put a recall vote on the agenda for the next meeting. If all of you are so fed up with your leadership, then frickin' do something instead of whining like a bunch of little girls!

 

[DoinTime]

But you do make a very good point of 9E not having a holdings company to force a bankrupcy.

Pinnacle Airlines, Inc. (the airline) is a subsidiary of Pinnacle Airlines, Corp. (the holding company). The difference between PNCL and MAIR is that PNCL does not bleed all the of the money off of their subsidiary companies. Why they don't do this I don't know.

 

[Simon Says]

Butters

The answer to your question regarding the pilots group vote is this:

There is NO memrat for a concessionary contract. And here is why.

First, I have talked to reps and they wont confirm nor deny MEMRAT for concessions. Which requires me to think back to our short history of this process.

We NEVER had MEMRAT before the 04' Contract. It was a few strong LEC reps (who are no longer here) that pushed for it. That MEMRAT vote, was for that contract only!! Unless it was written into the Bylaws permanently, which it wasn't, then this MEC can do whatever they feel "is in the best interest of the pilots group (the best interest of THEMSELVES).

Also if you'll remember that after the Contract was pushed thru by our leaderless MEC, we wanted permanent MEMRAT and the option to MEMRAT ANY LOA that came down the pike. Our MEC said NO, impossible! Reason: They didnt have time to pass along every contingency that might arise and there might be some that were time sensitive. BULL SH*T.

So you're right it'll probably come down to a judge, but it'll probably come down to Wee-chor voting for 20% simply because Woerthless told him to do so.

If you're an LEC/MEC rep reading this post and I am wrong, call me on this and tell me I am wrong.

Here's another way of looking at it. If the MEC is silent, besides the Payday Messages, then you know something negative is about to happen. Duane Woerthless is not going to let XJ pilots NOT take paycuts, when his own pilots just took a 23% pay cut exactly 1 week ago.

UMMM....OK, but your really don't know what you are talking about. And if anybody thinks he does then please call a Rep yourself and form your own opinion.

 

[Simon Says]

Pinnacle Airlines, Inc. (the airline) is a subsidiary of Pinnacle Airlines, Corp. (the holding company). The difference between PNCL and MAIR is that PNCL does not bleed all the of the money off of their subsidiary companies. Why they don't do this I don't know.

Really? I did not know that. Thanks for the info. (changes a few opinions of mine)

Who is the CEO of your holdings company?

 

[xjhawk]

yes! i say lets open up talks with the company! That way maybe i can get a raise and we can get some of that money we left of the table during our last contract talks to allow for a growth contract! Maybe then after i get a raise, i can make over 30 grand a year and maybe buy my dream house in a bad area or a house of about 800 sq feet! When the board of directors refund some of their salary and the execs do the same thing for doing such a piss poor job over the past few years, then maybe we allow them for talks for our raises.......when they sell their houses, and live on 25 grand a year, have no money left over for savings at the end of the month, then and only then can we begin these so called talks. Oh and by the way, join me at their houses picketing for the rights to have a house of my own........its criminal to think i need to accept any terms other than a pay raise! @#%$#@%%$!

 

[DoinTime]

Who is the CEO of your holdings company?

Pinnacle Corp does not have a dedicated management staff. Currently, the executive structure is common between the holding company and the airline.

 

[tripacer]

UMMM....OK, but your really don't know what you are talking about. And if anybody thinks he does then please call a Rep yourself and form your own opinion.

Tells us then Simon, what are our options. Enlighten us to the truth. Dont give us the ALPA spin "call your rep and then form your own opinion". Ive done that, and the info I received is what I posted here for all to read.

 

[CptMurf]

Tripacer,
You are SO misinformed and full of crap, I gotta wonder if your in Mgmt. and just wanting to split the pilot group by flamebaiting on FlightInfo.

MemRat was not used before the current contract because of time constraints and missinformation. The internet and instantanious information was in its infantcy in '96 there was no easy way to MemRat ours or anyone else's contract in such short notice. Now there is, it worked well for our contract and allowed NWA to TA an agreement in a week. If there are concessions negotiated, there will be MemRat to vote the TA in or out, period. Other issues do not need or require MemRat. Could you imagine a ratification vote on the LOA for the multi-class bid, it would never have passed, because nobody knew what it was or how it would work.

Wycor is not out to screw you, I seriously doubt any person or pilot that has dealt with him on any issues would tell you that he was out for himself. He has ALWAYS worked for the greater good of the group. Just because you may have felt screwed over because something didn't work in your favor or benefit you individually, doesn't mean that our MEC doesn't care about the ENTIRE pilot group. Your pathetic!

Here's the REAL issue, if we give concessions now, there is nothing stopping the company to file section 1113(c) and extract more concessions later. I'll wait for the judge to decide my fate and face the axe only once thank you very much.

 

[CptMurf]

If you've ever volunteered or been involved with the union, you would know it's a rigged game. This banter against "the whiners" is used by our leaders and their followers to deflect the fact that they are not looking our for the groups best interest as a whole.

BTW Kmox has volunteered for the union several times. Get a clue. If you've got a problem with our MEC, volunteer yourself. Take them solutions, don't just whine about YOUR problems on FlightInfo.