XJ pilots: Here is the lube, stand by for the big. . .

[Butters]

I BELIEVE THIS IS THE ONLY REASON MESABA ENTERED INTO BANKRUPCY WAS TO OPEN UP THE PILOT CONTRACT.

To answer why 9E did not file bankrupcy is simple. Their contract is already open through Section 6 negotiations.

Folks, it is that simple.

So can't we count of those of you in the MEC to stand firm and tell the company to shove it or are we looking at another roll-over-and-take-it scenario?

 

[PCL_128]

The reason Mesaba Aviation is in BK but not Pinnacle is very simple: MAIR Holdings funnels all of Mesaba Aviation's profits back into the MAIR bank accounts and leaves Mesaba Aviation with virtually no cash as a buffer. Pinnacle on the other hand keeps all of it's profits without having to send any of it to some nebulous holding company. As a result, Pinnacle had $66 million in the bank to cushion the blow of not receiving the payments from NWA after the BK filing. Mesaba didn't have that cushion because their profits were sitting in MAIR bank accounts. Mesaba is actually quite profitable, but all of the money goes to MAIR, which loses money on other ventures such as Big Sky. The truth is, MAIR actually has tremendous amounts of cash on hand. I believe the number is somewhere around $120 million, but I could be off by $10 million or so.

 

[PCL_128]

So can't we count of those of you in the MEC to stand firm and tell the company to shove it or are we looking at another roll-over-and-take-it scenario?

I don't know why you think the responsibility all rests with the MEC on this. No matter what Wychor et al do, they will most likely send any TA out for membership ratification to avoid a lynching. The final decision will be up to you and the rest of your fellow pilots, just as it was a couple of years ago with the new contract. Don't blame the MEC for these things. The pilot group holds the ultimate decision.

 

[Butters]

.....

 

[Butters]

I don't know why you think the responsibility all rests with the MEC on this. No matter what Wychor et al do, they will most likely send any TA out for membership ratification to avoid a lynching. The final decision will be up to you and the rest of your fellow pilots, just as it was a couple of years ago with the new contract. Don't blame the MEC for these things. The pilot group holds the ultimate decision.

Not quite.

The pilots voted to strike in '03. When the deadline came due in '04, everyone was ready and willing to walk. The MEC decided to "keep negotiating", not the pilot group.

Why doesn't the MEC get some balls and tell the company to go to hell before we ever have to vote? The strong ALPA types always blame the pilot group when they have the far majority of the power in such matters.

How can you say "don't blame the MEC" when you have no idea what you are saying?

 

[KL24]

Mesaba is actually quite profitable, but all of the money goes to MAIR, which loses money on other ventures such as Big Sky. The truth is, MAIR actually has tremendous amounts of cash on hand. I believe the number is somewhere around $120 million, but I could be off by $10 million or so.

And the cost to acquire and run Big Sky at a loss has only been around $12 million according to MAIR. So please let's not turn this into, "all of our money is funding a losing airline." There's still $108 million of your money in their bank and probably a lot more. MAIR has done almost nothing for both companies.

 

[PCL_128]

Not quite.

The pilots voted to strike in '03. When the deadline came due in '04, everyone was ready and willing to walk. The MEC decided to "keep negotiating", not the pilot group.

Why doesn't the MEC get some balls and tell the company to go to hell before we ever have to vote? The strong ALPA types always blame the pilot group when they have the far majority of the power in such matters.

How can you say "don't blame the MEC" when you have no idea what you are saying?

I do have a very good idea what I'm saying. In the end, it's all up to the pilot group. I agree that striking at the midnight deadline was probably the best idea, but the MEC apparently wanted to give the pilot group a chance to decide on that TA. If you and the rest of the pilot group weren't happy with it, then a solid NO vote would suffice and the strike would most likely have commenced immediately. Again, the MEC's powers are limited. The pilot group almost always has the final say.

 

[Simon Says]

The reason Mesaba Aviation is in BK but not Pinnacle is very simple: MAIR Holdings funnels all of Mesaba Aviation's profits back into the MAIR bank accounts and leaves Mesaba Aviation with virtually no cash as a buffer. Pinnacle on the other hand keeps all of it's profits without having to send any of it to some nebulous holding company. As a result, Pinnacle had $66 million in the bank to cushion the blow of not receiving the payments from NWA after the BK filing. Mesaba didn't have that cushion because their profits were sitting in MAIR bank accounts. Mesaba is actually quite profitable, but all of the money goes to MAIR, which loses money on other ventures such as Big Sky. The truth is, MAIR actually has tremendous amounts of cash on hand. I believe the number is somewhere around $120 million, but I could be off by $10 million or so.

What you said is quite true.

I think 9E would of had a much more difficult time creating smoke and mirrors to fall into bankrupcy. But you do make a very good point of 9E not having a holdings company to force a bankrupcy.

 

[Simon Says]

So can't we count of those of you in the MEC to stand firm and tell the company to shove it or are we looking at another roll-over-and-take-it scenario?

Talk to a union rep to get the story of how hands are tied in Bankrupcy. Basically if we don't agree to any kind of concessions it will fall upon the judge to impose concessions on how he sees fit. So, if the reps say "shove it" the company will say "fine" and then go to the judge and say the Unions are not negotiating and here is the list of concessions that we need. Then the judge will impose a contract on us as he sees fit.

I know what you are going to say next....."Strike"

Well, ALPA believes we are on firm legal ground to strike while the company does not. So, once all the hoops have been jumped through to strike, the company will file an injunction to keep us at work until this legal aurgument can be hammered out in the courts. And rest assured this could take months if not years to determine if a pilot group can strike if a contract was impossed on us.

BANKRUPCY IS FAR DIFFERENT THAN SECTION 6 NEGOTIATIONS.

 

[Terry Hunter]

At the strike deadline, No XJ planes were flown until a T.A. was reached.

XJ Mgmt- You find it acceptable to make the pilot group wait 2 years for a new contract, and now you want a new contract within 1 month??? Do you really think we'd forget about the way pilots were treated throughout that time?

Carl Pohlad, Chairman of MAIR is paid $300,000 for his service. That is absolutely rediculous, and underscores how financially irresponsible XJ is all around.

The BK filing is so full of fakery in so many ways. You have two airlines in your house, and the one making money declares bankruptcy???

Lastly, this current contract was by no means what the XJ pilots felt they deserved. But many bought in knowing that growth was on the way, hence the label "Growth Contract" comforted people knowing that compensation was to be in faster advancement, better QOL, etc. The contract works - it allows XJ to make money, which they have been doing. A few late payments and threats that haven't come true YET do not make a bankruptcy.

No concessions. None. Time to force this management team to get off their arses, and run this company with some brains.

 

[Butters]

Talk to a union rep to get the story of how hands are tied in Bankrupcy. Basically if we don't agree to any kind of concessions it will fall upon the judge to impose concessions on how he sees fit. So, if the reps say "shove it" the company will say "fine" and then go to the judge and say the Unions are not negotiating and here is the list of concessions that we need. Then the judge will impose a contract on us as he sees fit.

I know what you are going to say next....."Strike"

Well, ALPA believes we are on firm legal ground to strike while the company does not. So, once all the hoops have been jumped through to strike, the company will file an injunction to keep us at work until this legal aurgument can be hammered out in the courts. And rest assured this could take months if not years to determine if a pilot group can strike if a contract was impossed on us.

BANKRUPCY IS FAR DIFFERENT THAN SECTION 6 NEGOTIATIONS.

I understand and agree with everything you are saying.

I, along with many of my fellow XJ pilots, are so fed up that we are willing to let the judge decide. We will probably get hit hard but I would rather some old judge decide that than giving Spanjers the power to do it.

Either way we get screwed.

 

[Simon Says]

Don't get me wrong either....I will vote no to any kind of concessions.

 

[tripacer]

I understand and agree with everything you are saying.

I, along with many of my fellow XJ pilots, are so fed up that we are willing to let the judge decide. We will probably get hit hard but I would rather some old judge decide that than giving Spanjers the power to do it.

Either way we get screwed.

Butters

The answer to your question regarding the pilots group vote is this:

There is NO memrat for a concessionary contract. And here is why.

First, I have talked to reps and they wont confirm nor deny MEMRAT for concessions. Which requires me to think back to our short history of this process.

We NEVER had MEMRAT before the 04' Contract. It was a few strong LEC reps (who are no longer here) that pushed for it. That MEMRAT vote, was for that contract only!! Unless it was written into the Bylaws permanently, which it wasn't, then this MEC can do whatever they feel "is in the best interest of the pilots group (the best interest of THEMSELVES).

Also if you'll remember that after the Contract was pushed thru by our leaderless MEC, we wanted permanent MEMRAT and the option to MEMRAT ANY LOA that came down the pike. Our MEC said NO, impossible! Reason: They didnt have time to pass along every contingency that might arise and there might be some that were time sensitive. BULL SH*T.

So you're right it'll probably come down to a judge, but it'll probably come down to Wee-chor voting for 20% simply because Woerthless told him to do so.

If you're an LEC/MEC rep reading this post and I am wrong, call me on this and tell me I am wrong.

Here's another way of looking at it. If the MEC is silent, besides the Payday Messages, then you know something negative is about to happen. Duane Woerthless is not going to let XJ pilots NOT take paycuts, when his own pilots just took a 23% pay cut exactly 1 week ago.

 

[tripacer]

Why doesn't the MEC get some balls and tell the company to go to hell before we ever have to vote?

Because our MEC Chair has no-balls - or a spine. He gets his marching orders from ALPA National, and his minnions follow him like the pied-piper, no questions asked. Why do you think that after we voted to strike in 03', he decided to "keep negotiating". ALPA National told him to. He is the best used-car salesman I have ever seen. It's a disgrace!

 

[kmox29]

Because our MEC Chair has no-balls - or a spine. He gets his marching orders from ALPA National, and his minnions follow him like the pied-piper, no questions asked. Why do you think that after we voted to strike in 03', he decided to "keep negotiating". ALPA National told him to. He is the best used-car salesman I have ever seen. It's a disgrace!

May I ask what (besides ranting on Flighinfo.com) are you doing to fix this problem? Or are you like a lot of people and just point fingers, whine, and complain. Whenever the nominations come up for LEC reps, I see VERY few people (maybe 2 or 3?) on the ballot.

If you do speak out at union meetings, vote in the elections, and volunteer your time to the union, I apologize. I did not mean to generalize you. I just see SO much whining and SO little action from those whiners.

I say Fox-Uniform to our SLT (typing those letters makes me want to puke). Let the bankrupcy court ream me. At least I'll have a fresh face to look at while I'm being sodomized.