Xe + ev = 1

[Oakum_Boy]

You think ALPA's crack team can win? Maybe we could start a pool. You know, like the ones in Vegas. Who's in?

 

[mckpickle]

First, organic growth refers to internal factors. Hiring, buying aircraft, etc. As opposed to acquisitions.

The reason I believe the deal could be in jeopardy if the single list for all three is pushed is JA's history and past events. We tried a union campaign at OO. It failed, pretty badly. Now of course JA finally gave them the pay raise they were supposed to have gotten a couple of years prior. But, I think, the reason the previous purchase attempt of XE was stopped was the scope and merger issues. If anyone knows, directly, of another specific reason please share.

Just look at the way this purchase was done. Inc. is transferring the money to ASA who is going to purchase XJT. Why? Well to avoid the merger with non-union SKW of course.

I wouldn't put it past JA to kill the deal if he can't keep his non-union whipsaw baseball bat with which to beat us all if it came down to it.

Now, a little history. When we (ASA) were in negotiations, they dangled 15 CR9's to make us sign a concessionary contract. This was about Feb of 2006. When the union wouldn't bite, less than two weeks after the memo announcing the aircraft, they told us SKW would be getting all of them. We bit our lips and held fast. SKW did get those aircraft. Some discussion over whether we were ever really going to get them to begin with. But all they had to do was change the registrations, and they did.

Later, they threatened us with the infamous option 4 which was they would transfer all our aircraft to SKW and we would disappear. They actually did start this. When we closed SLC, they were slated to keep 13 of our CR7's. Due to costs, down time associated with transferring the mx program from one certificate to the other, they only kept 3. At one point during the breifings from our company, I said fine, since we are cheap on the CR2 and they are cheap on the CR7, they can have all of our CR7 and we will take all their CR2s. After all that would make the most business sense right??( this was before $135 per barrel oil). They didn't take me up on the plan.

They will use the whipsaw. They will not let it go without a fight or they might just kill this deal. JMHO.

Thats good insight, thanks for sharing. What are your thoughts about mergind all three groups? Would that be something that you and most other ASA pilots would welcome? Granted it doesn't seem like their "studedn council" pilots would exactly fit into two alpa groups well, but well, I guess I beats a whipsaw. Thoughts?

 

[COEX-FO]

You think ALPA's crack team can win? Maybe we could start a pool. You know, like the ones in Vegas. Who's in?

Why start a pool when you have one of the best "vote with your dollars" avenue available to you already...NYSE!

If you think this deal is going to die, as some believe, then just sell short XJT for $6.56.

When the deal dies and the price falls back to $2.50 a share you have become a huge winner. Buy 10,000 shares and receive a tidy profit of $26,240.

If you really believe this deal is going to fail, here is a way to profit from it. Any takers??

 

[Nevets]

First, organic growth refers to internal factors. Hiring, buying aircraft, etc. As opposed to acquisitions.

The reason I believe the deal could be in jeopardy if the single list for all three is pushed is JA's history and past events. We tried a union campaign at OO. It failed, pretty badly. Now of course JA finally gave them the pay raise they were supposed to have gotten a couple of years prior. But, I think, the reason the previous purchase attempt of XE was stopped was the scope and merger issues. If anyone knows, directly, of another specific reason please share.

Just look at the way this purchase was done. Inc. is transferring the money to ASA who is going to purchase XJT. Why? Well to avoid the merger with non-union SKW of course.

I wouldn't put it past JA to kill the deal if he can't keep his non-union whipsaw baseball bat with which to beat us all if it came down to it.

Now, a little history. When we (ASA) were in negotiations, they dangled 15 CR9's to make us sign a concessionary contract. This was about Feb of 2006. When the union wouldn't bite, less than two weeks after the memo announcing the aircraft, they told us SKW would be getting all of them. We bit our lips and held fast. SKW did get those aircraft. Some discussion over whether we were ever really going to get them to begin with. But all they had to do was change the registrations, and they did.

Later, they threatened us with the infamous option 4 which was they would transfer all our aircraft to SKW and we would disappear. They actually did start this. When we closed SLC, they were slated to keep 13 of our CR7's. Due to costs, down time associated with transferring the mx program from one certificate to the other, they only kept 3. At one point during the breifings from our company, I said fine, since we are cheap on the CR2 and they are cheap on the CR7, they can have all of our CR7 and we will take all their CR2s. After all that would make the most business sense right??( this was before $135 per barrel oil). They didn't take me up on the plan.

They will use the whipsaw. They will not let it go without a fight or they might just kill this deal. JMHO.

That's exactly why. They also told us that to be cost competitive with Skywest in essence we would need to take a 16% pay cut. This on top of the fact that they were going to transfer 35 (10 for DAL out of LAX and 25 for CAL) of XJT's aircraft over to Skywest and leave XJT only with 205 aircraft and the ability for CAL to put all those aircraft up for bid in 12 months.

He was already using Skywest to whipsaw XJT before that deal was even consummated. But for some reason many people think that JA would never do that...just look at ASA blah blah blah...

 

[mckpickle]

Why start a pool when you have one of the best "vote with your dollars" avenue available to you already...NYSE!

If you think this deal is going to die, as some believe, then just sell short XJT for $6.56.

When the deal dies and the price falls back to $2.50 a share you have become a huge winner. Buy 10,000 shares and receive a tidy profit of $26,240.

If you really believe this deal is going to fail, here is a way to profit from it. Any takers??

Not a bad idea....the deal will cause the stock to stay close to current levels....unless there is a counter offer. But IF the deal dies, you'd be a huge winner! If not you won't lose much.

 

[ASA Captain]

I think if pushed, JA will kill the deal.

I would support a 3 way. (he he he). But this ain't about me. It all depends on XJT and their MEC on how far they want push this. Me, personally, if the deal depends on it I would rather get the two way merge done and force JA's hand by using our 4300 pilot voting block and a union drive that people have to actually vote to take part in the vote (due to the NMB 50% of voters rule change). I am not a lawyer or an ALPA rep, so your guess is as good as mine. I think we might fair better by getting the two groups together and then fight the fight.

I've seen JA operate for a little while and he is not gonna give up his baby.

 

[ASA Captain]

If you think you could win a merger fight in court name your district. Unless your in the 9th I would stay away from the courts. They are not gonna side with the union.

 

[Nevets]

If you think you could win a merger fight in court name your district. Unless your in the 9th I would stay away from the courts. They are not gonna side with the union.

Is SGU in the 9th district? Which court was it that put an injunction against Skw during the last ALPA drive?

 

[crxpilot]

I think the larger group should form a new union and then staple the other group to the bottom.

 

[damnflyboy]

Right before the SKW pilots think about voting for a union (to make 1 group from 3), the company will announce the acquisition of assets from a dying regional. SKW pilots will realize upgrades and QOL enhancements so fast, their heads will spin. In a fit of euphoria, the SkyWest pilots will send the union packing once again. That's a prediction, but I dare destiny to state otherwise.

SkyWest "Inc" isn't stupid. They have us all by the sack...Atlantic SE, XJT, and SkyWest Airlines pilots alike. When they have 2 sides (union and non) fighting for affection, some sacks are caressed and some sacks are squeezed.

I have a question for the SkyWest Airlines pilots. Do you even want one pilot group, or do you prefer it the way it is?

 

[ASA Captain]

Frankly, the skywest pilots don't have any say in this at all. The have no union and the company didn't buy anyone.

I hadn't thought about the Comair deal and possible liquidation. Nice bone to keep those guys non-union. JA wins again.

 

[ASA Captain]

Come to think of it, if all the deliveries (stolen) from Comair or Mesa actually happen and they go to SKW, I will be first in line to file a lawsuit for the three way merger.

Two can play this game!!

 

[damnflyboy]

Come to think of it, if all the deliveries (stolen) from Comair or Mesa actually happen and they go to SKW, I will be first in line to file a lawsuit for the three way merger.

Two can play this game!!

I'll drop a Benjamin in your mailbox to help defray the cost...that is, if we get our mailboxes back. (?)

"SkyWest has the capital to re-fleet ExpressJet “over the next several years,” Rich said. “We’re well positioned to re-fleet, grow the fleet and move into new aircraft types as warranted.”"
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_channel.jsp?channel=comm&id=news/avd/2010/08/05/02.xml&headline=SkyWest%20Sees%20Fleet%20Synergies%20With%20Merger

Then again, SkyWest pilots might want that single list afterall.

 

[Wasted]

Come to think of it, if all the deliveries (stolen) from Comair or Mesa actually happen and they go to SKW, I will be first in line to file a lawsuit for the three way merger.

Two can play this game!!

There won't be any kind of one list until the Skywest pilots want it as well. The best way to make the Skywest pilots want a union is for them to realize they just got whipsawed. Whether it be ASA taking a cut and getting the work instead, or Skywest pilots taking a cut for the work. Either way, if management plays this game, they should realize that the next step will be that they lose their precious non-union Skywest to ALPA. Management will have to tread carefully here. The whipsaw can backlash against them as well. Two can definitely play this game. Pilots need to realize what their leverages are.

 

[maxcackel]

This is very true, the Skywest pilots just got their balls squeezed by JA. The whipsaw was to give ASA the 10yr Continental contract with growth and Refleet plans and a very powerful pilot group due to size.

 

[ASA Captain]

But if the rumors turn true, SKW guys will get more airframes to appease their whipsaw anger.

They didn't really get whipped. Inc. just had to do the deal this way because of the XJT merger clause. It's not like JA dangled the prior deal over their heads and forced them into a paycut.

We at ASA know the whip. We were beat with it numerous times and with a smile while they did it. Remember Inc. doesn't need to whipsaw SKW pilots. They just don't get a seat at the table. The company can do what it wants when it wants.

There is some power with a huge pilot group (4300) but it is limited by the transfer threat. Even with the transfer protections afforded in the ASA contract they can still take aircraft, they just have to take some pilots with them. Thanks, but no thanks to that bridge to nowhere.

 

[damnflyboy]

I also think it was terrible that ASA went through 2 waves of furloughs when SKW didn't furlough a single pilot. Something very fishy about that.

 

[ASA Captain]

Trying to think of a way to get the SKW guys to come to the table. How can we urge them to get in the game?

Contract talks should focus on locking in a great percentage of acquired aircraft. Let's say 66%. Sounds fair. You SKW guys don't like it, get in the game.

Now to craft language that binds Inc. into dishing out new aircraft to EV/XE. Hmmm.

 

[Nevets]

"SkyWest has the capital to re-fleet ExpressJet “over the next several years,” Rich said. “We’re well positioned to re-fleet, grow the fleet and move into new aircraft types as warranted.”"
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_channel.jsp?channel=comm&id=news/avd/2010/08/05/02.xml&headline=SkyWest%20Sees%20Fleet%20Synergies%20With%20Merger

Then again, SkyWest pilots might want that single list afterall.

He didn't say who would get those aircraft though. I'm sure Inc will use this to whipsaw again unless we scope ALL these aircraft in plus the 30 other 35 seaters CAL pays leases for.

 

[ASA Captain]

The whipsaw will come. We at EV did a fair job of protecting ourselves and have grown as well.

The 4300 member group will certainly have an impact on the bottom line and as a unified group, we will be able to do the same.

 

[RJLoser]

Trying to think of a way to get the SKW guys to come to the table. How can we urge them to get in the game?

Contract talks should focus on locking in a great percentage of acquired aircraft. Let's say 66%. Sounds fair. You SKW guys don't like it, get in the game.

Now to craft language that binds Inc. into dishing out new aircraft to EV/XE. Hmmm.

They need to stay away from the table. Skyw pilots will come out on top. They are JA's baby. A union will do nothing but hurt them.

 

[ASA Captain]

Let them stay away from the table. When we negotiate for them and sign a deal for a majority of any growth at the corporation, they will wonder what hit them.

This deal is big money, especially if JA gets PBS on both EV and XE. To let the deal blow up over contractual issues related to seniority would be very costly. A lawsuit dragging it all out would be very costly.

A nice deal securing assets and growth for the new EV/XE would seal up the deal quite nicely.

 

[skootertrash]

Let them stay away from the table. When we negotiate for them and sign a deal for a majority of any growth at the corporation, they will wonder what hit them.

This deal is big money, especially if JA gets PBS on both EV and XE. To let the deal blow up over contractual issues related to seniority would be very costly. A lawsuit dragging it all out would be very costly.

A nice deal securing assets and growth for the new EV/XE would seal up the deal quite nicely.

Wow, you really don't have a clue how things work do you. Considering a contract won't pass on this side we'll be stuck for years. Then once we finaly do our 2600 pilots will vote out your 1650 and take over. If 1/2 the asa guys are like you I'd say you've got it coming.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Wow, you really don't have a clue how things work do you. Considering a contract won't pass on this side we'll be stuck for years. Then once we finaly do our 2600 pilots will vote out your 1650 and take over. If 1/2 the asa guys are like you I'd say you've got it coming.

Does everyone agree with you?

Originally Posted by blastoff
Originally Posted by blastoff [URL="http://forums.flightinfo.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif"]http://forums.flightinfo.com/images/...s/viewpost.gif[/URL]
I think you are too easy to discount the fact that most XJT pilots are ready to move on from the broken promises of the once great XJT. ASA is a good company and you seem to like your CEO, so most guys are keeping it in perspective. This deal will go through and I think most will be happy with it no matter what the list looks like.

I know you like to keep emphasizing that you're doing the buying. That's fine, but has no bearing on SLI.

Originally Posted by Jetlinker
Agreed. Most XJT pilots are glad this thing is going through. This place isn't half of what it used to be. There's no reason this has to turn into a pis$ing match.

 

[skootertrash]

Does everyone agree with you?

[/I]





[/I]

Of course not. But guys like me are just starting to peel away the onion of your pilot group and contract. Nothing personal, but the smell gets worse and our eyes water more with each layer. Benefits.....OMG, I can't believe how crappy they are....it'll take thousands more from each family's pockets. The pay is comenserate but he work rules are horrible. The wording of your contract and LOA's are what we had under contract 97. We've been dealing with a crap situation here. What we've found is when the times get tough, management will do everything and anything to cover their own arses. With escape clauses in the wording you have they can walk all over you QOL. You talk about how great your PBS system is, but you've yet to even turn it on! You've given up your vacation touching which for us WILL mean working an average of an extra 24 days a year for a guy with 4 weeks of vacation just to get the same amount of pay! Your sick time acrual is dismal, vacation acrual is worse. At this point I'd rather you didn't buy us, we take pay cuts and keep the company afloat on our own. Because taking a bit out of YOUR shiit sandwhich is slightly less appealing than making our own!

 

[ASA Captain]

Hey skoot, RTFP.

I am talking about the SKW guys, not XJT.

 

[skootertrash]

Hey skoot, RTFP.

I am talking about the SKW guys, not XJT.

Whoops, my bad. Sorry.

 

[ASA Captain]

And btw,
4x7=28

70(vacation low)-28=42

Two 4 day trips at 21 hours each = 42

8 on. 22-23 off. 1 week of vacation.

If you don't know what you are talking about, shut up and just listen for a while. You might learn something.

 

[79%N1]

I'm sorry, but what are the XJT pilots going to vote the ASA pilots out of? Not following....

 

[skootertrash]

And btw,
4x7=28

70(vacation low)-28=42

Two 4 day trips at 21 hours each = 42

8 on. 22-23 off. 1 week of vacation.

If you don't know what you are talking about, shut up and just listen for a while. You might learn something.

Ok, until the company decides that staffing is to tight OR you're in the bottom half and builds your line to 95 hours. So.....95-28=67 hours that need to be flown. On an average of 5 hours per day, you're working 13 days.....thats 17-18 days off. Not the 24-25 that we can get here. And yes, it CAN happen. Read your LOA.

See, I can do math too!