X-Jet Comments from 2003

[JetLinkin Park]

Yes, I think it is the best package we will see. To your point about customs pay and a day off for reserves, giving that back would equal roughly $747,000 per year in savings, not even 0.5% in rate. I am not willing to gamble $30,600,000 in retro money to even try get another point in rate, but that is just my personal opinion.

-Neal

I don't think we should give up $30 million for a .5% raise. I think we should give up $30 million for a 4% raise. You see, I don't want to go back to the table to exchange equal compensation, I want to go back and get more. If this gets voted down, there's going to be a lot of people who want you to do the same.

I know what Mr. Ream is puting in his pocket year after year, and it's time we got some of it.

 

[JetLinkin Park]

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Don't get me wrong. I still believe that voting yes to the first offer MAY be a mistake. Mgt. has been known to hold back in case the TA is voted down. What we finally voted yes to was WAY, WAY, better than the "first final offer".

Before each vote, they threatened us with every thing. They told the news papers they might be forced to close the doors if we voted the TA down because they simply could not afford any more. They sent color brochures with pie graphs and comparisons to other contracts line by line to our homes, even Fred Reid, then Pres. of Delta, came to CVG and had a press conference the day before the "second final offer" was to voted down threatening all sorts of doom and gloom if we said no. Well, we said hell no and a couple of weeks later, they were back at the table.

Good luck and we are 100% behind you.!

Great post. You're correct of course. However, any member of the NC admitting as much is just pissin on two years of their own work. They know it to be true though. I'm gonna bet on it.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

I don't think we should give up $30 million for a .5% raise. I think we should give up $30 million for a 4% raise. You see, I don't want to go back to the table to exchange equal compensation, I want to go back and get more. If this gets voted down, there's going to be a lot of people who want you to do the same.

I know what Mr. Ream is puting in his pocket year after year, and it's time we got some of it.

What people want and what people will realistically "get" are 2 different concepts. As to Ream's salary, if he worked for free, we could get 12 days off for reserves for all months instead of just the 5 31-day bid periods.

-Neal

 

[BluDevAv8r]

\\



Don't get me wrong. I still believe that voting yes to the first offer MAY be a mistake. Mgt. has been known to hold back in case the TA is voted down. What we finally voted yes to was WAY, WAY, better than the "first final offer".

Before each vote, they threatened us with every thing. They told the news papers they might be forced to close the doors if we voted the TA down because they simply could not afford any more. They sent color brochures with pie graphs and comparisons to other contracts line by line to our homes, even Fred Reid, then Pres. of Delta, came to CVG and had a press conference the day before the "second final offer" was to voted down threatening all sorts of doom and gloom if we said no. Well, we said hell no and a couple of weeks later, they were back at the table.

Good luck and we are 100% behind you.!

Nice post and thank you for the kind words. However, we all must remember that your situation was far different than our situation (as is typically the case in these negotiations processes). All of that hoopla you speak of most likely came once the cooling-off period began. You had REAL leverage at that point. We are NOT going to see a cooling-off period any time in the near to mid future. Having the ultimate weapon..the nuclear bomb...is a wonderful deterrent - if you have it - which we don't and won't have any time in the next 6 to 12 months. That fact encapsulated and framed the decision-making process for our NC and MEC.

-Neal

 

[Air Biscuit]

Neal 6-12 months is not that long and alot better than living with this for 6+ years IMHO. I understand the gamble, but I think it's well worth it. If Bush were to win then maybe it's a different story.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Neal 6-12 months is not that long and alot better than living with this for 6+ years IMHO. I understand the gamble, but I think it's well worth it. If Bush were to win then maybe it's a different story.

As you said - it is a gamble. That "6 to 12 months" is a minimum. We might not ever see a release, especially if our pilot group is insisting on an economic package that the NMB deems "unreasonable." My personal and professional opinion is that it isn't worth the risk. By voting "yes," I know what I am getting. By voting "no," I have no clue what I might get in the future. We are all entitled to our opinions and I respect that so I also feel compelled to provide my own.

-Neal

 

[Paul R. Smith]

Right on Neal!

 

[nonstop]

I'm not sure who you are, but your risk/reward analysis is interesting. Are you sure that by voting this contract down, you will gain a continued climb in 50-seat rates? I know what happens if we ratify this TA. I do not know what happens if we don't. Food for thought.

-Neal

Wow, I thought we only receive our dose of scare tactics at the road show. I thought scare tactics were managements job.

How about suggesting people vote based on their opinion of the TA and stop trying to scare them with IF's and MAYBE's.

Nothing's certain, ever. It doesn't mean you should accept a deal you feel is unfair.

 

[flynryan15]

Just a outside oppinion

I find it highly unlikely that management has made this there final offer. Seeing that this is the first time they have come to the pilots for a vote. Any management team worth a salt is going to have a back up plan and counter offer if their first offer is rejected. Trust me they are duty bound to their shareholders to have a plan.
Remember Express Jet Airlines is in the unique position that they operate over 40 percent of the daily departures for CAL. And belive in the fact that Gordo and company know this. They also know that even if they threaten it, there is no way to just replace that amount of flying. Even if they attempted to farm it out to various company's. It is just logistically impossible!
As a group you guys seem to have been in agreement that you wanted to have the best pay and work rules. Well then go get it. Remember Gordon Bethune has been quoted saying he would have given the CAL guys more then they settled for.
I

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Wow, I thought we only receive our dose of scare tactics at the road show. I thought scare tactics were managements job.

How about suggesting people vote based on their opinion of the TA and stop trying to scare them with IF's and MAYBE's.

Nothing's certain, ever. It doesn't mean you should accept a deal you feel is unfair.

Ryan,

That is not a scare tactic. That is my professional opinion. I see you posting your opinions all over the internet (which is 100% fine and I support your right to voice your opinion). But in all fairness, am I not entitled to mine as well?

Please show me a threat or a "scare tactic" or anything similar in what I wrote above. It is the NC and ALPA's feduciary responsibility to presnet not only the facts but risks as well. We want everyone to make an intelligent, informed, and rational vote, whichever way they choose to vote.

Talking about scare tactics - the plethora of posts you write all are full of emotion and chest-thumping, sometimes degrading others at our company who are voicing their concerns on the 'net (they are entitled to their opinions as well, even though they are 180 from yours). I know you won't like this post but such is life.

-Neal

 

[contract2002]

I find it highly unlikely that management has made this there final offer.

If it was their first offer, you would have been voting on roughly an 8% pay raise with NO SCOPE, a different vacation package, no moving benefits, no leg by leg pay protections and a myriad of gains that were not acheived until the NC REJECTED several management offers.

This is the first offer that the MEC/NC brings to you for a vote.

This TA reperesents about the 25th offer from management.

I would be extremely angry if the NC brought me management's first offer.

Buy hey, that's just me.

 

[flynryan15]

?????????

Can somebody tell me how many offers Comair voted down?

 

[nonstop]

That is not a scare tactic. That is my professional opinion. I see you posting your opinions all over the internet (which is 100% fine and I support your right to voice your opinion). But in all fairness, am I not entitled to mine as well?

Yes you're entitled to your opinion, but stop pushing your opinion and start listening to your constituents. Shed an equal amount of light on the negatives and the positives. Can you just not provide facts like a professional without injecting your opinion on everything like it is fact? These people come to the road show's to be educated, not sold... unfortunately it's just become a giant propaganda machine. I worry many will not see through it just like LOA 15 and have regrets afterward.

Talking about scare tactics - the plethora of posts you write all are full of emotion and chest-thumping, sometimes degrading others at our company who are voicing their concerns on the 'net (they are entitled to their opinions as well, even though they are 180 from yours). I know you won't like this post but such is life.

Now who's degrading who? I'm no more a chest thumper than you. My posts include facts about the TA, if you disagree with them, that's fine. Don't act like I'm spreading false truths though. You like to provide the best case scenario "what if's." I feel to make an educated decision all the worst case scenarios "what if's" must be evaulated too. You spend all your time focusing on the positives of the TA and hardly none on the negatives unless confronted. I'd assume that it is your responsibilty to speak about the negatives too, but apparently all you're worried about is pushing your opinion.

 

[Sam Fisher]

<yawn>

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Yes you're entitled to your opinion, but stop pushing your opinion and start listening to your constituents. Shed an equal amount of light on the negatives and the positives. Can you just not provide facts like a professional without injecting your opinion on everything like it is fact? These people come to the road show's to be educated, not sold... unfortunately it's just become a giant propaganda machine. I worry many will not see through it just like LOA 15 and have regrets afterward.

Now who's degrading who? I'm no more a chest thumper than you. My posts include facts about the TA, if you disagree with them, that's fine. Don't act like I'm spreading false truths though. You like to provide the best case scenario "what if's." I feel to make an educated decision all the worst case scenarios "what if's" must be evaulated too. You spend all your time focusing on the positives of the TA and hardly none on the negatives unless confronted. I'd assume that it is your responsibilty to speak about the negatives too, but apparently all you're worried about is pushing your opinion.

I'm sorry Ryan but I disagree. I'm not sure if you were present at a road show presentation but we clearly lay out the negatives, including the concessions in Moving Expenses, the fact that we no longer take our vacation with us if we voluntarily change domicile/status, the fact that a reserve now owns his trip at 18 hours instead of 12, etc. We also talk about how we arrived at our FO rates as well as the per diem rate and why you won't find trip/duty rigs in this contract. Lastly, we also discuss that the rates are clearly south of where we expected and hoped them to be. We also talk about how things could get better just as we talk about how things could get worse. Once again, it is a risk/reward analysis that each pilot must make prior to exercising his vote.

I have been providing the facts for over 2.5 years Ryan. If you feel that I have not conducted myself in a professional manner, by all means, seek my removal through the proper channels.

Lastly, I have yet to have one person come up to me, email me, or call me (or have anyone else tell me) that they felt like they were being "sold" at this presentation. We went to great lengths to ensure that we, in fact, were not going to "sell" this thing at the presentation. We also went to great lengths to ensure that we provided not only the facts, but also our professional opinion not only of the situation we are in but also about what we think is the best course of action for this pilot group. Pilots will have the ultimate decision in whether or not this TA passes and I support that fact 100%.

Not that it matters but I am curious since you have called the presentations a "giant propaganda machine" but have you attended and participated in a road show presentation? If so, great and I am glad you could come and partake. If not, I hope you do, so that you can see for yourself that the 2-hour presentation and subsequent 2 hour Q&A session is most definitely not a sales job.

Fly safe and feel free to call or write anytime.

-Neal