X-Jet Comments from 2003

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

Pilot groups like chawaw and mesa have made it very hard for any pilot group out there to negotiate fair wages. I hope you realize this.
Threads like this are wrong. It's like breaking a mans legs then laughing at him because he has trouble walking. If they don't get Comair plus 1%, it is not because they did not try, but because the chawas and mesas have fu cked them by agreeing to prostitute themselves out.

 

[JetLinkin Park]

All very valid points in original post. XJT guys talked about raising the bar for the past 2 years +. Now most are happy with substandard wages. You guys have a right to piss, moan, and judge comments from the past.

Just know that they're are plenty of NO VOTES here. I will gladly give up retro pay for a continued climb in 50 seat pay.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Just know that they're are plenty of NO VOTES here. I will gladly give up retro pay for a continued climb in 50 seat pay.

I'm not sure who you are, but your risk/reward analysis is interesting. Are you sure that by voting this contract down, you will gain a continued climb in 50-seat rates? I know what happens if we ratify this TA. I do not know what happens if we don't. Food for thought.

-Neal

 

[Britpilot]

Pilot groups like chawaw and mesa have made it very hard for any pilot group out there to negotiate fair wages. I hope you realize this.
Threads like this are wrong. It's like breaking a mans legs then laughing at him because he has trouble walking. If they don't get Comair plus 1%, it is not because they did not try, but because the chawas and mesas have fu cked them by agreeing to prostitute themselves out.

At least someone gets it.

 

[JetLinkin Park]

I'm not sure who you are, but your risk/reward analysis is interesting. Are you sure that by voting this contract down, you will gain a continued climb in 50-seat rates? I know what happens if we ratify this TA. I do not know what happens if we don't. Food for thought.

-Neal

To re-iterate Neal, my words were "I will gladly give up retro pay for a continued climb in 50 seat pay." Wouldn't you??? I didn't say that if the TA gets voted down, we would get those rates for giving up retro. I just made a fairly simple straight forward comment, which I stand by. Do you honestly believe this is the companies best offer? I'm willing to bet my retro check that it's not.

I'd also gladly return the 10 minutes of customs pay and the extra day off to futher increase the pay scales. That's just me and my $27/hr opinion talking though.

In the end, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. I can rely on the idea that the conducted polling has steered you and the rest of the NC in this direction. If that's the case, the voting will speak for itself.

 

[sgu]

Pilot groups like chawaw and mesa have made it very hard for any pilot group out there to negotiate fair wages. I hope you realize this.
Threads like this are wrong. It's like breaking a mans legs then laughing at him because he has trouble walking. If they don't get Comair plus 1%, it is not because they did not try, but because the chawas and mesas have fu cked them by agreeing to prostitute themselves out.

thank you!

 

[FlyChicaga]

I don't think you can put all the blame on Mesa, Chautauqua and Mesaba. It also has a lot to do with JetBlue and MidAtlantic... airlines which fly 70-110 seaters at rates below what the starting goal was in this contract. You can't get $100/hr for a 5-year captain on an Embraer 145 when MidAtlantic is paying 5-year captains $66/hr for the EMB-170 and JetBlue is paying 5-year captains $77/hr.

Heck, go to www.airlinepilotpay.com and compare the $100/hr ERJ goal with Spirit, Midwest, ATA (LRJ), Independence, and Sun Country... all "major" airlines.

 

[I.P. Freley]

I.P. Freley vbmenu_register("postmenu_223460", true

Man, talk about dredging up the past... It took me ten minutes to even figure out what thread my original post was on.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

To re-iterate Neal, my words were "I will gladly give up retro pay for a continued climb in 50 seat pay." Wouldn't you??? I didn't say that if the TA gets voted down, we would get those rates for giving up retro. I just made a fairly simple straight forward comment, which I stand by. Do you honestly believe this is the companies best offer? I'm willing to bet my retro check that it's not.

I'd also gladly return the 10 minutes of customs pay and the extra day off to futher increase the pay scales. That's just me and my $27/hr opinion talking though.

In the end, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. I can rely on the idea that the conducted polling has steered you and the rest of the NC in this direction. If that's the case, the voting will speak for itself.

Yes, I think it is the best package we will see. To your point about customs pay and a day off for reserves, giving that back would equal roughly $747,000 per year in savings, not even 0.5% in rate. I am not willing to gamble $30,600,000 in retro money to even try get another point in rate, but that is just my personal opinion.

-Neal

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

thank you!

\\



Don't get me wrong. I still believe that voting yes to the first offer MAY be a mistake. Mgt. has been known to hold back in case the TA is voted down. What we finally voted yes to was WAY, WAY, better than the "first final offer".

Before each vote, they threatened us with every thing. They told the news papers they might be forced to close the doors if we voted the TA down because they simply could not afford any more. They sent color brochures with pie graphs and comparisons to other contracts line by line to our homes, even Fred Reid, then Pres. of Delta, came to CVG and had a press conference the day before the "second final offer" was to voted down threatening all sorts of doom and gloom if we said no. Well, we said hell no and a couple of weeks later, they were back at the table.

Good luck and we are 100% behind you.!

 

[JetLinkin Park]

Yes, I think it is the best package we will see. To your point about customs pay and a day off for reserves, giving that back would equal roughly $747,000 per year in savings, not even 0.5% in rate. I am not willing to gamble $30,600,000 in retro money to even try get another point in rate, but that is just my personal opinion.

-Neal

I don't think we should give up $30 million for a .5% raise. I think we should give up $30 million for a 4% raise. You see, I don't want to go back to the table to exchange equal compensation, I want to go back and get more. If this gets voted down, there's going to be a lot of people who want you to do the same.

I know what Mr. Ream is puting in his pocket year after year, and it's time we got some of it.

 

[JetLinkin Park]

\\



Don't get me wrong. I still believe that voting yes to the first offer MAY be a mistake. Mgt. has been known to hold back in case the TA is voted down. What we finally voted yes to was WAY, WAY, better than the "first final offer".

Before each vote, they threatened us with every thing. They told the news papers they might be forced to close the doors if we voted the TA down because they simply could not afford any more. They sent color brochures with pie graphs and comparisons to other contracts line by line to our homes, even Fred Reid, then Pres. of Delta, came to CVG and had a press conference the day before the "second final offer" was to voted down threatening all sorts of doom and gloom if we said no. Well, we said hell no and a couple of weeks later, they were back at the table.

Good luck and we are 100% behind you.!

Great post. You're correct of course. However, any member of the NC admitting as much is just pissin on two years of their own work. They know it to be true though. I'm gonna bet on it.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

I don't think we should give up $30 million for a .5% raise. I think we should give up $30 million for a 4% raise. You see, I don't want to go back to the table to exchange equal compensation, I want to go back and get more. If this gets voted down, there's going to be a lot of people who want you to do the same.

I know what Mr. Ream is puting in his pocket year after year, and it's time we got some of it.

What people want and what people will realistically "get" are 2 different concepts. As to Ream's salary, if he worked for free, we could get 12 days off for reserves for all months instead of just the 5 31-day bid periods.

-Neal

 

[BluDevAv8r]

\\



Don't get me wrong. I still believe that voting yes to the first offer MAY be a mistake. Mgt. has been known to hold back in case the TA is voted down. What we finally voted yes to was WAY, WAY, better than the "first final offer".

Before each vote, they threatened us with every thing. They told the news papers they might be forced to close the doors if we voted the TA down because they simply could not afford any more. They sent color brochures with pie graphs and comparisons to other contracts line by line to our homes, even Fred Reid, then Pres. of Delta, came to CVG and had a press conference the day before the "second final offer" was to voted down threatening all sorts of doom and gloom if we said no. Well, we said hell no and a couple of weeks later, they were back at the table.

Good luck and we are 100% behind you.!

Nice post and thank you for the kind words. However, we all must remember that your situation was far different than our situation (as is typically the case in these negotiations processes). All of that hoopla you speak of most likely came once the cooling-off period began. You had REAL leverage at that point. We are NOT going to see a cooling-off period any time in the near to mid future. Having the ultimate weapon..the nuclear bomb...is a wonderful deterrent - if you have it - which we don't and won't have any time in the next 6 to 12 months. That fact encapsulated and framed the decision-making process for our NC and MEC.

-Neal

 

[Air Biscuit]

Neal 6-12 months is not that long and alot better than living with this for 6+ years IMHO. I understand the gamble, but I think it's well worth it. If Bush were to win then maybe it's a different story.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Neal 6-12 months is not that long and alot better than living with this for 6+ years IMHO. I understand the gamble, but I think it's well worth it. If Bush were to win then maybe it's a different story.

As you said - it is a gamble. That "6 to 12 months" is a minimum. We might not ever see a release, especially if our pilot group is insisting on an economic package that the NMB deems "unreasonable." My personal and professional opinion is that it isn't worth the risk. By voting "yes," I know what I am getting. By voting "no," I have no clue what I might get in the future. We are all entitled to our opinions and I respect that so I also feel compelled to provide my own.

-Neal

 

[Paul R. Smith]

Right on Neal!

 

[nonstop]

I'm not sure who you are, but your risk/reward analysis is interesting. Are you sure that by voting this contract down, you will gain a continued climb in 50-seat rates? I know what happens if we ratify this TA. I do not know what happens if we don't. Food for thought.

-Neal

Wow, I thought we only receive our dose of scare tactics at the road show. I thought scare tactics were managements job.

How about suggesting people vote based on their opinion of the TA and stop trying to scare them with IF's and MAYBE's.

Nothing's certain, ever. It doesn't mean you should accept a deal you feel is unfair.

 

[flynryan15]

Just a outside oppinion

I find it highly unlikely that management has made this there final offer. Seeing that this is the first time they have come to the pilots for a vote. Any management team worth a salt is going to have a back up plan and counter offer if their first offer is rejected. Trust me they are duty bound to their shareholders to have a plan.
Remember Express Jet Airlines is in the unique position that they operate over 40 percent of the daily departures for CAL. And belive in the fact that Gordo and company know this. They also know that even if they threaten it, there is no way to just replace that amount of flying. Even if they attempted to farm it out to various company's. It is just logistically impossible!
As a group you guys seem to have been in agreement that you wanted to have the best pay and work rules. Well then go get it. Remember Gordon Bethune has been quoted saying he would have given the CAL guys more then they settled for.
I

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Wow, I thought we only receive our dose of scare tactics at the road show. I thought scare tactics were managements job.

How about suggesting people vote based on their opinion of the TA and stop trying to scare them with IF's and MAYBE's.

Nothing's certain, ever. It doesn't mean you should accept a deal you feel is unfair.

Ryan,

That is not a scare tactic. That is my professional opinion. I see you posting your opinions all over the internet (which is 100% fine and I support your right to voice your opinion). But in all fairness, am I not entitled to mine as well?

Please show me a threat or a "scare tactic" or anything similar in what I wrote above. It is the NC and ALPA's feduciary responsibility to presnet not only the facts but risks as well. We want everyone to make an intelligent, informed, and rational vote, whichever way they choose to vote.

Talking about scare tactics - the plethora of posts you write all are full of emotion and chest-thumping, sometimes degrading others at our company who are voicing their concerns on the 'net (they are entitled to their opinions as well, even though they are 180 from yours). I know you won't like this post but such is life.

-Neal