x/c help pls

[Archer]

my CFI told me that all I've got left are my x/c flights, 2 at least with him, and 3 on my own (including my Long x/c) and then night flying and checkride prep...

yet x/c is what worries me the most. I think I can get the hang of soft/short fields, x-wind landings (what I find some of the hardest PPL maneuvers) with some practice on my own by some solo flight...

but x/c is a little different...my CFI and I went over a sample x/c flight planning, and now he would like me to plan my first x/c with him, which is basically the same as the sample, except for weather and change of plane...from Warrior to Archer...

but I still dont' fell all that confortable doing this planning...

so if I could get some advice/help from you guys...just on a baisis of steps. For example:

1. Print off TAFs, NOTAMs and METAR's and Winds and Temperatures aloft from WSI for departure and arrival airports, and perhaps one or two in between.
2. Take a look at weather depiction chart, or doppler radar or whatever
3. Get the POH of the airplane to be flown
4. Gather all tools for flight planning (i.e. EB6, Sectionals, etc)
5. Sit down at a table with printed weather info, POH and flight planning tools and start planning.
6. Start with drawing line on sectional avoiding MOA, restricted, Class Bravo etc...
7. blah blah blah

23. Call up FSS for weather briefing and then file flight plan
24. Check WSI for updates
25. Preflight then meet CFI...etc

something of this sort of format with be great, so that I have an idea on how to go about doing this quickly and well.

One of my main concerns...clouds! How to stay clear of them...what if you have a layer at 3000 ft, and one at 6000ft...

for my first x/c I'll be flying Lafayette (KLAF) to Fort Wayne (KFWA), Indiana and back...86 nm straight route, 52 min of flight time on a Warrior when I did my sample flight plan...

I'll be planning for that same route...crusing alt of 5500 ft

Any advice/help greatly appreciated.

Archer

 

[Timebuilder]

Most of what you need was no doubt covered in your sample x-c problem that you worked with your instructor. Use that experience as your guide.


It sounds as though you have a good command of what needs to be done. Don't forget fuel usage, weight and balance, and performance numbers for takeoff and landing. As a piper pilot, you are already used to changing tanks, but make a note of when on your flight log, just as a reminder.


When planing VFR cross countries, be wary of flying above cloud "layers". Few or scattered layers are acceptable below your airplane. Any more clouds (fewer "holes") and you need to descend or divert as necessary. Whatever you do, DON'T get stuck on top of a broken layer that's in the process of becoming an overcast layer. Without the instrument rating, you don't want to have such a challenging experience to look back on. If this DOES ever hapen, confess your situation to a controller (always know who they are along your route, and the frequencies, or use flight following) so they can help you.

Is that what you needed?

 

[HappyFlying]

Archer,

This is a bit off the subject but worth knowing. When you get your FSS briefing, ask specifically about TFRs. They don't always include them unless you ask. Don't assume that they will include them with the NOTAMs. I requested a standard briefing for an IFR flight to Nashville last month with no memtion of any TFRs. After I filed my flight plan, I asked him about the TFRs because of changes I knew about concerning a nuclear plant along my route. To his surprise, the entire city of Nashville was a TFR for several hours that day because of George W. visiting a fundraiser for a senate candidate. The briefer was sitting in Nashville at the time and had been giving briefings all morning oblivious to the TFR over his own head. I would have been turned back hopefully since I would be IFR but if I had been VFR, I would find out how slow an F-16 can fly to intercept a Cessna 150. I was going to meet with a FAA airworthiness inspector to get a new certificate issued for my plane. I called him to reschedule and he did not know about it either.
Have fun on your XC. Let us know how it goes.
Blue Skies,

Happy Flying

PS If you get a chance, land at Eagle Creek (EYE) and go eat at the place on the far end of the parking lot. Though pricey, it's worth the trip. We fight over who gets to fly the King Air to maintenance so we can eat there.

 

[Archer]

Are TFRs Terminal Forecast Restrictions? as in Restricter areas that pop up?

thanx Timebuilder...whatever advice/thoughts anyone can add to this is welcome and appreciated.

It's just that we went over the planning once with my CFI...and x/c flight seems the most complicated and challenging things in the PPL training it seems to me...the first solor scared me, I can't imagine the first x/c solo!

But, I think like all things in aviation, it has to be taken one step at a time, and practice will make perfect

Archer

 

[Dan CFI/CFII]

TFR: Temporary Flight Restriction.

Around my neck of the woods, we tend to pretty much catch fire all summer long (bark beetles mean next year'll be a doosy), it's not uncommon for them to put up a TFR around the fires to keep traffic out of the way of the firefighting planes.

That's one of many uses for TFRs, but basically, they're restricted areas, and you need to know where they are and how to avoid them (which is a problem because they can and do change rapidly).

Dan

 

[tarp]

Just keep on listening to your instructor. He or she hasn't led you astray yet, have they?

It is a building block process and you learn from your mistakes. Just remember the golden rule: Aviate, Navigate and Communicate. You are always going to do things in that order. Even if you get lost or disoriented (the Navigate thing), you still have to fly the airplane and keep a cool head. You just can't pull over and stop for a second until you have the plane safely on the ground.

That said, keep your planning organized and note the most important things first.

Aviate: what do you need to aviate? Good weather for a VFR pilot would be a nice thing. A plane with fuel would be another helpful tool. The plane should be balanced and not overweight (think in the future when you do this trip with three friends and full fuel). So let's see: Plane, People, Petrol, Paperwork and Performance.

Navigate: Well you want to go from point A to point B. Got to have charts, better pick some waypoints, need that weather so you can figure out the winds and how much time this is all going to take. As people said before what are the impediments? Mountains, large bodies of water (probably not in Indiana, but if you launch for Green Bay, Wisconsin one day....), restricted airspace, big TV towers, what are you going over and what are you going around? What are the facilitators? Got Interstates - IFR and IFRR stands for "I follow roads" and "I follow railroads". Are you going to use VOR's or other radio/satellite help? Is there a usable runway at my destination? How's the weather there? Is there an airshow going on today? Use your flight plan form to answer all the questions one-by-one.

Communicate: Who are you going to talk to and when? What are the frequencies? What do they call themselves? For example, down in South Carolina in the good old days, there were three airports in the Greenville/Spartanburg area. One is Greenville Tower (who is really Greenville Spartanburg Airport), one is Greenville Muni Tower and one is Spartanburg Tower. Gotta know which airport is which and what to call them.

There are two things I think you will take great joy in once the X-C begins. First, the charts are really excellent and have great detail if you use them right. Enjoy comparing the ground to your chart. Second, you will relish the accuracy of your flight plan. Once airborne and with a good winds aloft forecast for the altitudes you are using, you'll be amazed how you can predict the exact crossing of your waypoints(check points). It is fun!

 

[Archer]

Thanx a lot tarp. I'm sure flying x/c will be a lot of fun, I just want to get it right...for aftera all, going from point A to point B SAFELY is one of the main objectives of a pilot.

One question...if I'm going from Lafayette to Fort Wayne, the frequencies me and my CFI talked about where Fort Wayne's frequencies, Lafeyette's frequencies, and this Class Delta on the way, that supposevely has an approach control too, that is not listen on the A/F directory though...

I was wondering what other frequencies I should have with me...Chicago Center frequencies would be pretty helpful perhaps...

and, when I look in the a/f directory under "ARTCC" I get Chicago, Indianapolis etc...and then all these sub-frequencies depending on the closest city listed there.

For example, Fort Wayne has a Chicago Center frequency that operates the App/Dep when the Fort Wayne Class Charlie is not operating...

are these kind of the FSS RCOs? places that allow Chicago Center to talk to people far way? so it'd probalby be good to know some of these frequencies...no?

ARcher

 

[StrykerFL]

Cross-Country Planning

A TFR or Temporary Flight Restriction is just as Dan said. It is a temporary restricted area in which flight is not allowed. Where I fly in Central Florida, a good example of a TFR would be the new 30 NM circle placed around Kennedy Space Center for Space Flight Operations (Space Shuttle Liftoff and Landing). You definitely would not want to penetrate such an area. Before 9/11 I used to orbit about 10 NM south of the launch pad at about 10,000’ and watch launches. Now if you are anywhere near the TFR area you will get intercepted and forced down only to find FBI and local Law Enforcement waiting on you. It seems like it happens to someone every launch, only now they have Surface-to-Air Missiles to deal with you now.

As far as your cross-country is concerned, I noticed that you said you would be “planning for that same route...cruising alt of 5500 ft.” You cannot plan your cruising altitude of 5500’ unless you know all of the variables. What are the variables in planning a VFR cruising? Lets take a look.

1. As you probably already know you must first determine your VFR Altitude 0º-179º 3500’, 5500’, 7500’, or 180º-359º 4500’, 6500’, 8500’, etc. by taking your magnetic heading (line drawn on your chart) and adding or subtracting your magnetic deviation, (West is Best & East is Least). The formula is MH +/- Mag Dev = Course Heading.

2. Now that you know your VFR Cruising Altitude you must figure out which altitude will work best. Factors in choosing that altitude include:
a. Aircraft Performance (Fuel Burn, TAS, Range, etc.)
b. Winds & Temperatures Aloft Forecast
c. Freezing Levels
d. Weather
e. Airspace Restrictions (TFR’s, MOA’s, Restricted Areas, etc.)
f. Terrain

3. You need a Cross-Country Checklist.

DO WELL IN ADVANCE OF THE PLANNED FLIGHT

1. Check Chart Currency
2. Locate Departure and Destination Airports
3. Locate Special Use Airspace & Obstructions Along the Planned Route
4. Locate Useful Navigation Aids
5. Draw Course Lines
6. Determine Course Checkpoints & Distances
7. Determine Magnetic Variation
8. Determine Bearings & Radials & Frequencies of Navigation Aids that you Intend to Use.
9. Determine Airport Frequencies, Runway Lengths, Traffic Pattern Altitudes and any Other Pertinent Information from the A/FD
10. Obtain an Airport Diagram

NO MORE THAN 2 HOURS BEFORE COMING TO AIRPORT

1. Obtain a Complete VFR Weather Briefing
2. Determine Your Cruising Altitude
3. Determine the Pressure Altitude & Temperature for Cruise and Takeoff & Landing
4. Compute Fuel, Time, & Distance to Top of Climb
5. Determine TAS & GPH for Cruise
6. Determine Groundspeed and Wind Correction Angle for Cruise
7. Determine Magnetic Course and Heading
8. Determine Time Between Checkpoints, and Total Time Enroute
9. Determine Fuel Requirements for the Entire Flight Including Reserves
10. Determine Weight & Balance Data
11. Fill Out & File FAA Flight Plan

4. Do you comply with FAR 91.103 Preflight Action:
a. NWKRAFT
N = Notams
W = Weather
K = Known ATC Delays
R = Runway Lengths
A = Alternatives Available
F = Fuel Requirements
T = Takeoff & Landing Distances

5. Last But Not Least, have fun.

Good-Luck with your Cross-Country it will be something that you will always remember.

 

[TDTURBO]

Archer,

All of the above is great advice but I can honestly say that after a few hundred hours, you'll never do all that sh*t. If I did all of the above I would be inclined to drive, it would be twice as fast. At least for the moment you will need to master all of the above only to purge such tasks with the aquisition of a good handheld gps.

 

[tarp]

Archer,

Since you asked.....

But first a word from the National Association of Flight Instructors. Your instructor should be your #1 source of information. This web site is nice, but you will get everything including the kitchen sink as suggestions. Please. Only your instructor has developed a one-on-one strategy for your learning experience. Generally, we like to start simple and then move to the more complex issues. One step at a time.

...and back to our regularly scheduled programming.

In keeping with the above, I would suggest that since Communication is the third most important thing in flying that you try to keep it simple at first.

What do you really need? Well LAF is tower controlled and FWA is tower controlled with APP/DEP control. On the flight plan forms I use with my students, there is a communications box. On it are gentle reminders of what you will need.

#1 ATIS/ASOS/AWOS - you need this for both your departure airport and your arrival airport

#2 UNICOM/CTAF/ARINC - big or small airport, you ultimately are going to have to ask where to park, order fuel and use the bathroom. At small airports, CTAF/Unicom does it all. At big airports, there may be an ARINC frequency for each fuel dealer. If you haven't found www.airnav.com on the web, you will soon.

#3 Ground Control - if needed at bigger airports.

#4 Tower Control - if needed at Class D airports.

#5 APP/DEP control - at Class B, C and TRSA/radar supported airports. Use the AFD and especially note the radials (sectors) in use for multi-frequency airports.

#6 CLNC Delivery - at bigger airports, there is a separate frequency from ground control just for you to check in and get a "clearance" to leave the airspace. Usually, there is a message on the ATIS broadcast with special instructions for VFR pilots.

#7 FSS contact - whether through an RCO or a direct line or through a VOR, you should have a method for filing, opening and closing flight plans.

These 7 frequencies will usually have you well prepared. Now for the other questions.

I would not concern myself about Center right now. Nice to have? Sure. Are you really going to talk to Chicago Center on your first VFR X-C? Don't think so. Also, don't confuse "Center" which is an Air Traffic Control facility with FSS which is a Flight Service Facility. There are FSS RCO's that are frequencies that you use to communicate with FSS about the Weather, your flight plans and anything else they can help you with. You will also find RCO's at different airports so that you can talk with a Center controller or Approach controller at a nearby facility for getting clearances - this is an IFR procedure that you are not going to use right now.

If your instructor has time on a subsequent X-C, I'll bet you'll get some instruction about how to ask Center for "flight following" and how to find the right Center frequency for the area you are flying through. This is kind of a master's level question when you are still in undergraduate work.

Forest. Trees. Sometimes you get so wrapped around the axle planning for a X-C that you miss the "big picture". If I haven't made this point. Listen to your instructor and let him/her guide you on the path. Relax and enjoy. Looking at the area, I see you have a great big MOA (Military Operations Area) on your trip. Your instructor is going to give you some very good training about this "special" airspace. The biggest job you have to do is fly the plane like you always do. After that, smile - a lot. This is going to be fun!

 

[Archer]

thanx for the encouraging words tarp.

I think I should just relax, use my CFI's notes on our sample x/c, try to do my best during those 2 hours before flight...and then fly the x/c. After all, my CFI can do this x/c with his eyes closed...and he did sound a little surprised when I was worrying soo much about it...he said "I'm going to be flying with you" and then...I understood...that we would get to Fort Wayne, and back, even if I had not done a flight plan at all!

Hell if weather got bad my CFI(I) could file a pop up IFR and get us back safe...

so I think, I should just try my best with the notes I have, and see how it goes...

after all, I have to try and see how it goes...and THEN ask questions...

we'll see how it goes...

I'll be flying sometime next week, I'll let you guys know how it went...

Archer

 

[Vik]

Archer,

These are DUAL x-c flights. You are going to make mistakes. It is natural. Your first x-c flight w/ your CFI, he is going to be teaching you the entire way. Don't stress on the duals but don't slack off either. Put more thought into those solo x-c flights when the time comes.

Until then, do your best and follow your sample problem. Your CFI will look at your plan in detail.

As far as weather goes, you'll get a DUAT and you'll know approx. what the weather is like around your area.

 

[Rick1128]

Archer, I going to throw my $2.56 in here. Back many years ago when I was in your position one of the things I did was to take an old sectional and just plan flight after flight. And go through the whole process. I did this so I would be comfortable with the process and paperwork. So when it was time to do my first one, it went quickly. Besides, it gave me something to do on those snowy winter days.

One of the things I did when I was instructing, was on the second dual x-country, tell my student that I was just a passenger for that flight. Tried to get the haziest day I could. Then I would distract them somewhere on the flight. Get them all turned around and then play the part of the panicy passenger. I would then let them dig themselves out. And if it seemed like they were losing ground, I would point out a nav radio or com radio and ask them what it did. That usually gave them a clue. At this point I would introduce DF steers. While it may sound cruel it did serve a purpose. The student learned that he was on his own and had to relie on himself and the aircraft. And that he could not panic. He also learned that there were many different ways out of a problem and to take advantage of them. It taught what could happen and to be wary of it. And they became more comfortable in the enviroment. And that is a key.

As for all the planning. In time you will do very little of it. You will learn some or many of the shortcuts. However, the steps you learn now are the basis of those shortcuts. From time to time I still do the whole shebang. Mostly when I am doing long range navigation and over water.

 

[Archer]

Thanx for the advice people...and all the cents

I do realize these boards are only secondary information. That my CFI is my primary. I have gone through a full, sample x/c planning, and I do understand it.

Yet, that is the only practice/instruction I have had. I know what has to be done mostly, yet I was trying to figure out the order...

one of my mian concerns is the CURRENCY of the weather information, and of NOTAM Ds and stuff like that....TFRs and what not...

See, I could print off some TAFs, METARs, Winds and Temperatures aloft, get an FSS standard briefing and look at some weather depiction charts 2 hours before my x/c and then take all those numbers and compute my pressure altitute, my fuel, time, and all the other performance numbers...

yet then, what I'm afraid off is once I'm done with my x/c from A to Z, will it still be valid?

My CFI tells me a x/c planning is only a rough estimate of how your flight is going to go. Roughly how much fuel you are going to need so you don't fall out of the sky...roughly what altitue you need to be at at least so you don't hit a TV or Radio station pole, and whether you can actually take-off or land at a given runway, or whether you'll be flying into a hurricane...

all these things...and that you do a lot of "planning" so to speak, and corrections in the air too...

so the currency of the weather and NOTAM information, or any other variable information depending on time is what concerns me...

see...it's like a domino effect...you cannot figure out your Compass Heading unless you know Winds and Tempereatures aloft...which may vary...you can't decidie your cruising altitude if you don't know your Cloud ceilings...which may vary....etc...

So basically...from the way I understand it...you get all these "variable" information sources printed off...call FSS for a briefing and then get down to your flight plan (which I believe should be started before those 2 hours for those things that don't depend on time...) so you can fill in the blank and finish up the x/c

but what do you do if after working 2 hours on your x/c plan...winds, temperature, visibily and cloud ceilings change....or a new TFR pops up...do you start over and screw the estimated time of departure (or whatever it is called)?

Archer

 

[Rick1128]

Archer, a question for you to think about. Is the weather you get even valid at the time you get it? Remember, the current weather can be as much as an hour old. And the forcasts and winds aloft as much as 6 hours old. That is one of the reasons you get an update just before you leave and continue to get them as the flight progresses.

 

[Pilotadjuster]

xc Planning

I felt much the same when learning xc planning. MY CFI had not given me any kind of checklist, so I developed one myself, pretty much the same as the one which has already been posted.

Yes, once you have your license, you may not go through every step (I confess to having done at least one xc just hitting the direct to button on the 430..), but you need to know how to do it and what the information is for.

That said, you may want to go through the steps, make your own checklist and have your CFI check through it for you. You have a checklist for everything else, why not this?

Last of all RELAX! At least on the first 2 your CFI will be with you, though you want to try not to use the right seat direction finder to get to the destination... This is actually one of the most satisfying parts of aviation--all the planning, then flying the plan and actually getting to the destination! Now WHEN you go on to your instrument, it is WAY cool to take of the foggles or break out of the clouds and see there really is a runway where you thought it would be!

Also--on the private checkride you have to SHOW your planning to the examiner. Nothing more than your CFI will require to go off on your own, but needs to be done correctly. If you go on to commercial, planning for that one is much the same, though the examiner will likely throw a few curves at you (take a gander at Moose Creek Ranger Station, ID if you have a sectional...had to plan a xc flight for my ride to there--any field marked "hazardous" on the sectional is an invitation for problems!).

Have fun with it! Like the rest of your training, if you're not having at least some fun, you must be doin it wrong...

Fly Safe!

 

[Archer]

One thing that always worried me.

You decide to go on a x/c with your friends, check the weather forecast a couple days early, they say partly cloudy or better, you draw your course line, do all you can do without the variable information days in advance.

Then 2 hours or less before take-off, you check weater, and do a detailed flight plan with the current weather. You are done half an hour before scheduled departure, the weather looks good, so you pre-flight the plane and meet your friends.

You take the x/c to your destination in the morning/early afternoon and get there safely.

But what happens once you land, park the plane and leave the airport to have some fun with your friends at your destination?

All this time your brain has been warm and you've been dealing with the flight.

But what if you spend say more than 2 or 3 hours at the destination.

How does the flight back work? And how do you get back into the flying mood? YOu know what I mean? You went to eat perhaps, had some fun, and have not thought of planes or flying for a good while. Then all of a sudden, you realize you are hundreds of miles from home, and have the responsability to getting yourself and your friends home SAFELY.

Well, do you have to spend another hour+ doing a detailed x/c planning for the way back? or even start from scratch if you see the weather is really bad on your previous route?

How does it all work? I mean, getting to your destination is only half the game...what about on the way back?

thanx

Archer

 

[TurboS7]

Just get a road map and follow the interstate. I am very serious. Always have yourself and out your out is going to what is most familiar will help reduce aprehension. The road is a perfect landmark to keep by your side. 5500 feet is way to high, you should be down around 2500 to 3500 feet so you can see all the landmarks. My first cross country was in a Luscombe with no radio or any electrical system. All I had was a compass a chart and a sharp pencil, I was 16 years old and sectionals were 35 cents each, I can still remember it like yesterday. You are flying one of the easiet routes in the whole country-relax and enjoy yourself.

 

[bigD]

Archer - I usually plan the flight back at the same time I plan the flight out. I just leave the spots specific to the wind conditions blank, and fill them out about a half hour before I leave. Getting in the flying mindset usually begins during the drive out to the airport. It happens automatically - something just clicks.

 

[Archer]

Do you feel comfortable figuring weather info out at airports other than your home base?

Are the services free? And does everybody use WSI? That is the only weather system I'm used to, as it's the only one I've used. There is this little room at my FBO, with a WSI station that provides all kinds of information, everything you could want in a nice black pc, with nice weather charts, and METARs, TAFs, NOTAMs, winds aloft all printed out nicely...

Talking about variables...what are the variables that you could wait to put in until you are half an hour from departure? Winds, altimeter, temperatures, ceilings and visibility?

Altimeter and elevation give you Pressure Altitude, which is the main thing you need, along with temperatures, do determine performance and wind corrections angles.

Archer