Wx Mins for Accepting an Instrument Approach Clearance

[Smoked Toilet]

I need an answer and a reg for the following situation:

Flying into LAX, you are outside of FUELR for the ILS 25L on the arrival, and the weather is below mins. ATC says "reaching FUELR cleared ILS 25L." Can you accept this clearance?

We all know we can't go past the final approach fix unless we have the weather, but can we accept a clearance to begin the approach?

Please respond with the reg!

Thx
ST

 

[MusicMan]

Not under part 121 or 135. Too lazy to look up the reg. Check some ops specs.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

A) You are outside of the FAF (FUELR)

B) The Weather is below minimums

C) ATC will clear you - they don't know what YOUR OPSPEC minimums are.

Under part 121 and 135 you may not begin an approach if the weather is below minimums outside of the FAF.

 

[Smoked Toilet]

I guess the question is really this. Can I continue past the IAF with with weather below mins for that approach? I know I can't go past the FAF, that is clearly stated in the FAR's, however where does it state I cannot go beyond the IAF.

 

[marycon]

FAR 121.651 (b)

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/tex...view=text&node=14:2.0.1.4.19.21.11.34&idno=14

 

[Peter Griffin]

The IAF is okey dokey no matter the WX. Regardless of what ATC tells you, you simply cannot proceed past the FAF with WX below mins. ONCE YOU ARE PAST THE FAF, you may continue the approach even if the WX does drop below mins (note "may", not "should").

We had a controller give us an RVR of 1000 right before the FAF once, and in the same breath cleared us for the approach. We told him we needed to hold for a minute for the vis, and his reply was, "oh just continue, it will come back up by the time you get here."

 

[NoahWerka]

121.567 Instrument approach procedures and IFR landing minimums.

135.225 IFR: Takeoff, approach and landing minimums.

 

[XJohXJ]

Well, I clicked on the link and read the reg. It only says you may not continue past the FAF if the mins aren't met. It doesn't say anything about the IAF. You may begin the approach, but you may not continue past the FAF if you don't have the min vis.

Now, whether or not it is smart to begin knowing that you don't have the mins is dependent on the situation and a variety of other factors.

 

[jetpig32]

If SOCAL is trying to give you an RVR update, try to hold off o. If you are handed off to tower, dont checking "outside fuler", justn responding until inside FULER. Just say blocked wait until you are inside. This should make things easier.

 

[172driver]

How about you just abide by the intent of the reg and don't shoot the approach if the wx is below mins? The guy that says 'blocked' at the FAF, pretending not to hear the RVR report, is the same guy ducking under at DH.

 

[MusicMan]

The IAF will be irrelevant as you are being vectored by SOCAL for an ILS.

 

[Alcatraz]

The IAF will be irrelevant as you are being vectored by SOCAL for an ILS.

Not if you're on an arrival that joins the approach, such as the CIVET. You almost always fly the transition from the CIVET to your respective runway.

My answer would be, yes, you can continue all the way to the FAF. Just prior to reaching the FAF, you'll need to ask for the RVR, which needs to be above your mins before you may continue. RVR can fluctuate so much it may actually be above mins, especially with fog from a windy marine layer (which is what? Advection fog?)

 

[AngelKing]

Just prior to reaching the FAF, you'll need to ask for the RVR, which needs to be above your mins before you may continue.

Speaking technicalese only, why would you want to ask, if you are not told?


AK

 

[vectorvictor]

Speaking technicalese only, why would you want to ask, if you are not told?


AK

If she's 17, you'll wish you had asked. Ignorance doesn't always absolve guilt.

 

[AngelKing]

If she's 17, you'll wish you had asked. Ignorance doesn't always absolve guilt.

You missed my point.

AK

 

[MALSR]

Its not mins (plural) we are talking about...its just visibility that's required to continue past the FAF.

 

[Poahi]

If she's 17, you'll wish you had asked. Ignorance doesn't always absolve guilt.

and a go around isn't going to help either...

sorry, I couldn't resist...

 

[AvroJockey]

I need an answer and a reg for the following situation:

Flying into LAX, you are outside of FUELR for the ILS 25L on the arrival, and the weather is below mins. ATC says "reaching FUELR cleared ILS 25L." Can you accept this clearance?

We all know we can't go past the final approach fix unless we have the weather, but can we accept a clearance to begin the approach?

Please respond with the reg!

Thx
ST

As indicated before you can accept the clearance, but the question is vague...poorly worded. The way the question reads it says you're not cleared for the approach until reaching the FAF, and this would never be the case. You should already be cleared for the approach if you're doing the intermediate phase.

Almost everyone is correct about being able accept a clearance and to shoot the approach until the FAF. At that point you need RVR/VIS above minimums. In other parts of the world, this is formally called the Approach Ban.

 

[Alcatraz]

Speaking technicalese only, why would you want to ask, if you are not told?
AK

The situation in the question was that the RVR was below mins, and I think we're all in agreement you can't pass the FAF if it's below mins. Since I'm assuming ATC had to give us an RVR that was below mins, I would continue up to just prior the FAF (which is about 20nm after FUELR) and hope it gets better... but if ATC wasn't constantly dishing out RVR reports, I'd have to ask for it in order to know what it was!

 

[Alcatraz]

As indicated before you can accept the clearance, but the question is vague...poorly worded. The way the question reads it says you're not cleared for the approach until reaching the FAF, and this would never be the case. You should already be cleared for the approach if you're doing the intermediate phase.

Almost everyone is correct about being able accept a clearance and to shoot the approach until the FAF. At that point you need RVR/VIS above minimums. In other parts of the world, this is formally called the Approach Ban.

Actually in LAX if you're arriving off the CIVIT or MITTS arrivals (or whatever replaced the MITTS), you usually don't get vectored at any time. The arrivals end at FUELR, which also corresponds with an (or the?) IAF for the 25L ILS. Therefore, beginning at FUELR, you are no longer on the arrival and are now on a segment of the approach. So, yes, ATC frequently states, "Reaching FUELR you're cleared the ILS 25L approach."

The FAF, or point at which you cannot continue without required wx, is about 20nm after FUELR (and I forgot the waypoint name).