Wuzzup at Pinnacle

[CoATP]

Monday Pinnacle was supposed to park 15 200's and put 150 pilots out. Anybody know the story? When they will be interviewing and hiring again?

 

[redflyer65]

15 to be parked. Looks like no furloughs do to our continued understaffing. Management wanting concessions off a crappy 6 year old contract after they have been raking in the cash off the service agreement for those same years. 28 CA displacements, but that will most likely cover those that are finishing upgrade training right now. That about wraps it up. No hiring for the near future, but could start back up down the road.

 

[FlyinScotsman]

Monday Pinnacle was supposed to park 15 200's and put 150 pilots out. Anybody know the story? When they will be interviewing and hiring again?

Parking airplanes, furloughs, Mainline in BK, and Oh by the way when can I get a job there?

You either don't have a clue and need one :laugh:

Or

You need too take the heroin needle out of you arm and sober up.

 

[CoATP]

I think it was mark twain who said "It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool then to open ones mouth and remove all doubt." Thank you for your input.

 

[Lear70]

Too much unknown to answer your questions.

The judge agreed that NWA can send back 15 aircraft. Unfortunately, they're not sending back the crap aircraft, they're sending some of the best... go figure.

I personally still think it's a bluff to get better lease rates on everything we have plus anything NWA might buy in the future... just my opinion.

Hiring has stopped, but they're still collecting resumes. A direct quote from the person in charge of staffing here: "One of our biggest problems figuring out staffing is attrition - we're just losing too many pilots."

We're on target to lose 40 pilots this month - none from disciplinary action (meaning they're quitting for better jobs or just getting out of here). So why are we displacing 28 CA's? You tell me - doesn't make any sense to us either.

A lot of other stuff going on here, all negative, not a fun place to work right now.

To tell you the truth, there are a LOT better places to be employed. If I had it to do over again I'd have gone somewhere else... Most of us are just making the best of a bad situation and trying to enjoy the flying, the coworkers, and what little time we have off.

 

[Detroitpilot22]

it would crack me up if management asked for concessions, i mean come on, what would they even take? We already have one of the lowest pay rates. I expect Pinnacle to hire again very soon just because they are losing so many people. Expect all new written tests and interviews when this does happen

 

[Andy Neill]

I think it was mark twain who said "It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool then to open ones mouth and remove all doubt." Thank you for your input.

The earliest source for this quote is Abraham Lincoln.

 

[dondk]

2 rumor's on hiring.. the first is in a few weeks for Feb vacancy
the second is starting February next year.

As Lear70 stated, the flood gates to get out are wide open. I have not heard the 40 number, but it would not suprise me.

I have heard that staffing will adjust for Dec and maybe Jan then it will be back to normal understaffing due to attrition.

 

[logolight]

28 CA displacements, but that will most likely cover those that are finishing upgrade training right now.

But aren't the street CA's hired wthin the last 9 months junior to the recent upgrades? I would think they're the ones to get displaced, not the ones upgrading now.

 

[EMB170Pilot]

Pinnacle Has

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Space People

 

[kmox29]

A lot of other stuff going on here, all negative, not a fun place to work right now.

True. But if you look at what they're doing to us here at Mesaba, it might make you feel better

 

[Mr. Irrelevant]

Aren't Pinnacle's staffing problems due to horrible pay, working conditions etc? If those don't change I can't imagine the staffing issue will change. Someone on here a few months back made a comment that about less than half of a proposed class actually showed up. Obviously that may or may not be true but it didn't surprise me. Sorry I couldn't quote exactly the numbers involved but I didn't hear one pilot I know say they would take Pinnacle up on that USA Today ad. All just laughed and chucked the paper in the trash.

Mr. I.

 

[Quillpig]

The earliest source for this quote is Abraham Lincoln.

And perhaps Honest Abe had a bible, for we read in Proverbs 17:28 that:

Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding.

http://www.bartleby.com/108/20/17.html#28

 

[Lear70]

But aren't the street CA's hired wthin the last 9 months junior to the recent upgrades? I would think they're the ones to get displaced, not the ones upgrading now.

Yup, that would be the street captains getting hosed. Good news is with attrition the way it is, they'll be back in their seats by March unless management comes up with some new way of staffing (don't put it past them).

The company has a new person in charge of staffing and he has a "new plan" on making the staffing work. Instead of building lines to 92 hours, they build lines to 80 hour averages, lower the average days off and spread the flying around (so now the senior guys are getting 11 or 12 days off instead of 14-16), then REFUSE TO LET lineholders pick up more than 82 hours of flying.

Assign reserves trips BEFORE THE MONTH EVEN STARTS, treating them as build-up lineholders, then junior assign and extend people to cover last-minute problems rather than use reserves as they were intended.

This is a COMPLETE departure from any previously used staffing plan, and may or may not require more people, depending on its success. We'll have to see how November and December work out before I think we'll see ANY vacancies or hiring booms (probably late Feb as someone else mentioned).

Mr. Irrelevant: you hit the nail on the head. What you neglected to include in your theorizing were the hundreds of schmucks who keep coming here under these working conditions and pay rates.

kmox: Mesaba's plight making me happier about my lot in life? No way, I have a lot of friends over there who are looking at displacement from the CA seat or possibly worse. If anything it makes my outlook worse - this industry just plain sucks until you get somewhere that an employee is actually considered an ASSETT!

 

[Mtnjam]

Pinchinickels

Yes, word is correct, just not exactly the most ideal place to be right now. They have ceased all negotiations because Uncle Phil wants more money out of the men and women that allow him to live in his Phat house with his Phat Cars!
The Displacement thing is a Hoax. There is no way they will displace any Captains. They can't afford to do so. I saw a Street Captain the other day in Minnie and he was sweating it. Don't buy it folks! It's leverage for another bad contract at 9E. Mesaba is hurting bad by January for sure and I have a feeling that they are in turn for a growth spurt by next year's end, "AKA" getting 70 seat aircrafts. 9E will not get these, and the new rumor is CRJ's belonging to Pinnacle will soon be entered into Mesaba's fleet. They only have what 1 or 2?? They have all the staffing for the CRJ training program? Thing's are fixin to get nasty at 9E, it's unfortunate, but like it was said before all you can do is try to make the best of it and keep looking for that next better opportunity, which right now there actually seems to be quite a few out there.

 

[kmox29]

kmox: Mesaba's plight making me happier about my lot in life? No way, I have a lot of friends over there who are looking at displacement from the CA seat or possibly worse. If anything it makes my outlook worse - this industry just plain sucks until you get somewhere that an employee is actually considered an ASSETT!

I wrote that tongue-in-cheek style. But I now realize, you can't actually see my tongue in my cheek. I've just come to the odd conclusion that Pinnacle is a better run company than Mesaba:

No bankruptcy
No 109 furloughs
No possible loss of an entire fleet
No 50% reduction in remaining fleet
Plus, a real possibility that as a 7 year pilot, my best hope might be a reserve SF340 FO

*sigh* I drink a lot nowadays...

 

[Lear70]

I've just come to the odd conclusion that Pinnacle is a better run company than Mesaba:

*sigh* I drink a lot nowadays...

And obviously smoke crack too...

Better run company than Mesaba?

Welllll... let's see if we can top you on stupidly-run companies:

D-Zero (on-time departures) is somewhere below 40% - that means over half of our flights depart late.

Attrition in all departments - our turnover rate in the scheduling department is 250%... yes, that means we replace almost all our schedulers more than twice per year - they stay about 3-4 months and get pissed off and leave. Dispathers are closer to 100% - they stay about 8-10 months, get pissed off, and leave. Flight attendants are about where schedulers are. Our current rate of pilot attrition is right at 30%... (unfortunately, it's all in the mid-level seniority range so my seniority doesn't go up). But the company doesn't see the training costs associated with all that linked with how they treat people.

The average days off for crewmembers is 11 while our credit/block has dropped into the mid 70's... that means we are flying LESS hours with MORE available crews with FEWER days off. Evidently they can't figure out how to increase productivity.

Only two to three months of operating capital saved - Mesaba had something like 5 months on hand (over $100 Million).

Pinnacle's cancellations are so bad that NWA is talking about getting rid of us as a carrier as part of their reorganization plan in Ch. 11 and we're going to have to pay a $1 Million penalty for missing our completion factor for the quarter (too many cancellations).

All-in-all I'd say your woes aren't management-caused; they're tactics by NWA in bankruptcy to either get better lease rates on those aircraft or possibly pave the way to replacing them with shiny new jets.

Your management seems to actually have its act together and is getting "screwed by The Man". Our management, on the other hand, can't run the operation correctly to begin with.

 

[kmox29]

And obviously smoke crack too...

Well, I am based in DTW imp:

Only two to three months of operating capital saved - Mesaba had something like 5 months on hand (over $100 Million).

I have been sufficently brainwashed now and (in robotic tone): "I...believe...MAIR...is...a...seperate...entity...than...Mesaba Airlines...and...their...cash...is...not...ours.""

Your management seems to actually have its act together and is getting "screwed by The Man". Our management, on the other hand, can't run the operation correctly to begin with.

I thought our management was "The Man"! Are you telling me that there might be more than one "Man"!?! Jeezus...how many "Men" are there!!!

 

[Lear70]

Well, I am based in DTW imp:

Well... that DOES explain a lot. :nuts:

I have been sufficently branwashed now and (in robotic tone): "I...believe...MAIR...is...a...seperate...entity...than...Mesaba Airlines...and...their...cash...is...not...ours.""

Funny how they do stuff like that...

I thought our management was "The Man"! Are you telling me that there might be more than one "Man"!?! Jeezus...how many "Men" are there!!!

Enough to ensure that you will ALWAYS need some type of lube working in this profession.

Find a fuzzy one named "Crusher" and maybe the rest will leave you alone.

 

[Notown]

We already have one of the lowest pay rates.

Yes the rates are low. Almost as low as MAG. But it might surprise you that MAG's retirement contribution is much higher than PCL's. The result is that PCL has the lowest total compensation of any regional airline flying comparable equipment (CRJ or ERJ).

Numbers don't lie.

 

[DoinTime]

Yes the rates are low. Almost as low as MAG. But it might surprise you that MAG's retirement contribution is much higher than PCL's. The result is that PCL has the lowest total compensation of any regional airline flying comparable equipment (CRJ or ERJ).

Numbers don't lie.

Your right that numbers don't lie but you offer no such numbers. Words, however, do lie and you offered many of those. I don't claim to know exactly what Mesa's 401K match is but it would have to be the best in the industry to overcome the shortfall in their wage rates even when compared to PCL. Mesa doesn't have anything that is industry leading.

 

[Cptn2b]

.....

 

[Lear70]

A friend at riddle in prescott, az said he saw like 50 new EMB's with northwest paint and "operated by Pinnacle" written on the side just chillin' in the desert...hmmm

*cough* Bullsh*t!

Nice try 1 post flamebaiter...

I believe Mesa is just slightly under PCL in terms of TOTAL compensation when taken as an entire contract over ALL seniority ranges and QOL issues.

So you really wanna whip 'em out and compare who's the lowest bidder?

When our negotiations are done, if we're still in the bottom 50 percentile of total compensation, I'll shut my yap about "lowering the bar".

I'll also quit and go back to the corporate world, as the only reason I'm sticking around is to try to have some type of "job stability" so that my resume doesn't look bad when shopping a job and hoping and pushing my fellow pilots to obtain a contract that reflects our contributions to a company that continuously posts a 9 digit yearly NET profit.

 

[erj-145mech]

A friend at riddle in prescott, az said he saw like 50 new EMB's with northwest paint and "operated by Pinnacle" written on the side just chillin' in the desert...hmmm

Lets see, first post, unbelievable stupid statement. Definitely ignore function on this tool.

 

[Notown]

Your right that numbers don't lie but you offer no such numbers.

So glad you asked.

I don't claim to know exactly what Mesa's 401K match is but it would have to be the best in the industry to overcome the shortfall in their wage rates even when compared to PCL.

Fortunately I have read Mesa's 401(k) plan. My source is the Regional Airline Association's "Wages, Work Rules and Benefits Survey 2003", using rates effective next year (2006). Take a two year FO who flies an average 82 hours / month. Excluding per diem or premium pay, at the end of the year a PCL FO will take home $24558.80 including PCL's generous "industry leading" 401(k) match. A MAG FO will take home 28772.16. $4213.36 more than a PCL FO. So who's at the bottom?

Admittedly this is the example with the greatest disparity. PCL's match gets better at 6 years of service.

Mesa doesn't have anything that is industry leading.

Didn't say they did. But after examining MAG's agreement, I was surprised how much better they are than PCL in some areas.

 

[Lear70]

So glad you asked.


Fortunately I have read Mesa's 401(k) plan. My source is the Regional Airline Association's "Wages, Work Rules and Benefits Survey 2003", using rates effective next year (2006). Take a two year FO who flies an average 82 hours / month. Excluding per diem or premium pay, at the end of the year a PCL FO will take home $24558.80 including PCL's generous "industry leading" 401(k) match. A MAG FO will take home 28772.16. $4213.36 more than a PCL FO. So who's at the bottom?

Admittedly this is the example with the greatest disparity. PCL's match gets better at 6 years of service.

Didn't say they did. But after examining MAG's agreement, I was surprised how much better they are than PCL in some areas.

You're being selective in making your comparison, and that won't fly. By limiting your "comparison" to only certain seniority ranges, you miss the big picture.

Again, when taken as a WHOLE contract over ALL longevity and seat pay scales plus all other compensation rules plus all other work rules, Mesa scores just under PCL by just a couple cents per hour and, admittedly, it's the 401k that does that damage. If our 401k was the same as the rest of our employee groups here, you wouldn't even be close.

This, by the way, is from the ALPA financial analysis people - the ones we go to in order to make sure that our "complete package" we're asking for in negotiations is industry leading without attempting to top the rest of the industry by such a wide margin that the company cannot sustain it, a la' UAL and DAL.

 

[Notown]

Mesa scores just under PCL by just a couple cents per hour and, admittedly, it's the 401k that does that damage.

Don't misunderstand - MSA as a company s*cks just as bad as PCL. We're comparing bad and worst. There's little benefit in that. If not for those couple of cents per hour, PCL would be the black sheep instead of MAG.

 

[PCL_128]

Don't misunderstand - MSA as a company s*cks just as bad as PCL. We're comparing bad and worst. There's little benefit in that. If not for those couple of cents per hour, PCL would be the black sheep instead of MAG.

Not quite. Pinnacle's contract was negotiated in '99. Mesa's contract is only a couple of years old. To compare the two is ridiculous. Our contract was negotiated for an airline that had a few dozen pink Saabs based in MEM. Mesa's contract was negotiated for a very large regional flying everything from BE1900s to CRJ900s. The fact that our contract beats Mesa's (even by a couple of cents) is just sad. It really shows how bad Mesa's contract really is.

P.S. Understand that I'm not attacking the Mesa guys. You had the Freedumb thing to deal with, so the sub-par contract is to be expected. It's just another example of how scumbags like the Freedumb and HoJet pilots can negatively affect the industry.

 

[DoinTime]

Fortunately I have read Mesa's 401(k) plan. My source is the Regional Airline Association's "Wages, Work Rules and Benefits Survey 2003", using rates effective next year (2006). Take a two year FO who flies an average 82 hours / month. Excluding per diem or premium pay, at the end of the year a PCL FO will take home $24558.80 including PCL's generous "industry leading" 401(k) match. A MAG FO will take home 28772.16. $4213.36 more than a PCL FO. So who's at the bottom?

Lets do your same example with a five year captain. Same parameters (82 hours/calander month and maximum matchable 401K contribution) but lets include 200 hours of per diem and any uniform allowance provided per calendar month now.

Yearly totals:

PCL captain:
wages - $61145.76
per diem - $3360.00
401K match - $1467.49
uniform maintenance - $240.00
Total - $66213.25

Mesa captain:
wages - $56717.76
per diem - $2904.00
401K match (assuming a 5-year employee gets the maximum match) - $1417.94
uniform maintenance - N/A
Total - $61039.70

Don't even get me started on things such as sick time accrual or "segment only" pay.

Admittedly this is the example with the greatest disparity. PCL's match gets better at 6 years of service.

Second year FO pay is the only example that has a disparity. All other longevity/status positions MESA is the bottom of the barrel.

Didn't say they did. But after examining MAG's agreement, I was surprised how much better they are than PCL in some areas.

I doubt you have read either agreement. You obviously have an agenda here and now your trying to support it. Anyone who has cracked the cover on both of these agreements knows the truth. Thats good enough for me.

 

[Lear70]

Not quite. Pinnacle's contract was negotiated in '99. Mesa's contract is only a couple of years old. To compare the two is ridiculous. Our contract was negotiated for an airline that had a few dozen pink Saabs based in MEM. Mesa's contract was negotiated for a very large regional flying everything from BE1900s to CRJ900s. The fact that our contract beats Mesa's (even by a couple of cents) is just sad. It really shows how bad Mesa's contract really is.

P.S. Understand that I'm not attacking the Mesa guys. You had the Freedumb thing to deal with, so the sub-par contract is to be expected. It's just another example of how scumbags like the Freedumb and HoJet pilots can negatively affect the industry.

Wasn't going to go there, but...

TRUE DAT! :smash: