Wow, Delta's Earnings

[BILL LUMBERG]

Enough of this "my choices" crap. Professional pilots have ATPs, and yes to get that ATP "their choices" and hard work are about 95% the reason they earned it.

But a pilots career progression is about 95% luck, timing, and circumstances, and no body should be crowing about their "choices" until they are retired, and by then they will know its only the inexperienced and immature who crow about their choices. I am sick of pilots that are equal professionals looking down or up at others as if their "choice" of employer means more than a fart.

+1 Point taken Turtle

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

I prefer a good Buck folder, Case quality is down lately.

Ladies, until we act like we are all pilots doing the same thing, demand the same thing, management has us in the barrel.

Mark the date....I agree entirely with Scoreboard

 

[Scoot 11]

You can color it any way you want, but Delta pilots "selling out" is really no different than pilots joining a lower paid airline to get their foot in the door or paying for your job via a type rating. (you can deny pft all you want, but we all know what is going on)

Chastising Delta pilots collective behavior, while defending yours makes you a hypocrite. Individual choices are much easier to make, and control. Trying to get 14K pilots to turn down a 21% raise is much more difficult.

BTW, I am not knocking you for taking care of your family. There are much more important things in life than flying airplanes. People will find ways to take care of themselves, especially in this business. Some fly maximum, some sue, some scab, some call in sick to do their "other job", some cheat, some just do their jobs and go home. There is no such thing as a "collective group" anymore. Those days died long ago.

I could go on an on about the SWA pilot group, and how they continuously screw the entire piloting profession. You could make a case that everyone is working more, making less, and lacking retirement due to SWA pilots hanging on the bar since their inception, but then IO become you. Griping about not getting your love, how your pilot group screwed you, how the Delta pilots screwed you, and everything else just makes you a hypocrite. I will give you credit, your story is unique--just like everyone else's.

Effing AAAA! A must read! And couldn't have been said better!:beer:

 

[redflyer65]

DALPA outsources almost 1 thousand RJ's at the heyday (twice the number of airframes that SW even operates by the way), meanwhile SW has NEVER had one RJ on the property and you guys are celebrating Puff's post? How many thousands of jobs lost at Delta over the past 15+ years because of that short sighted decision? How many dues dollars lost to your local union?

Wow.

 

[SplitBar]

I need to provide for my family until which time I get hired by a better carrier. Because of that requirement I have not bitch slapped the leaders of Delta, ALPA, DL ALPA, 9E's MEC, and guys like you. None of you have a clue. For that matter any Delta pilot who smiles at their f'ing profit sharing check should be bitch slapped too. For that they are doing to their fellow ALPA pilots all in the name of profits and a check. Why when a ALPA pilot who works for the same company, one ALPA pilot stays at a Double Tree while another ALPA pilot who is employed by an owned carrier of that same company stays at a 25 year old Ramada? Screw ALPA

If a Delta pilot had to deal with what a Endeavor pilot has to deal with on a daily basis they would be crying.

Our SOC/Dispatch/Maintenance are doing things that have serious safety implications. The shortage of pilots (since people are quitting) are making schedules terrible for all but the most senior. Junior manning is happening all the time, schedules are being doctored to get extra turns in under a 14 hour day. Last leg dead heads are being listed on over sold flights as standbys so that the pilot gets forced into working into days off. Releases...oh those interesting releases. 600 mile flights being filed under 10,000 ft while the 40 mile Alternate is at FL310. MX procedures are not being completed regularly and its up to the pilots to find them on every flight because it seems every aircraft has multiple MELS ( I found one HYD 1 SOV deferral in which they took out the engine driven pump entirely but did not pull the required CB's nor did they cap the hydraulic lines. Real nice. How about how many APU and single packs we fly with in the summer. I am sure those precious Delta passengers love that. I come to work and love my job, but the extra crap that they are throwing on us is just peachy. The funny thing is if I do not catch one of these things because I am flying 94 hours a month, 11 days off, 14 hour duty days all the time, and junior manned when ever they can-and since I was tired and did not find a screw up from dispatch or maintenance and something goes wrong, I get a letter in my file and Delta will not hired me because they have access to all that when I apply to Delta-when they caused it to begin with because of the crappy operation they created.

Nothing is stopping my professionalism at work, how I treat co workers and passengers and how I take pride in my job performance. But I am calling it as I see it. Glad to see Delta is doing well, maybe they will not shut us down and I will provide for my family. But the situation sucks unless you are a Delta pilot cashing a check while standing on the backs of an Endeavor pilot.

I could understand if you had a beef with DAL Management but why are you pi$$ed @ the pilots? It's your pilot group that voted 85% in favor of the concessions. It wasn't the Delta pilots that shoved the concessions down your throat.

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

DALPA outsources almost 1 thousand RJ's at the heyday (twice the number of airframes that SW even operates by the way), meanwhile SW has NEVER had one RJ on the property and you guys are celebrating Puff's post? How many thousands of jobs lost at Delta over the past 15+ years because of that short sighted decision? How many dues dollars lost to your local union?

Wow.

Thanks for the comments Red.

Let us know when you fly to over 400 domestic destinations and if you can do it with just a fluff....doubtful

 

[xjhawk]

Okay so maybe I am mistaken about the Delta pilot union, ALPA National (who is at the head of that union? oh, a Delta pilot), and Delta airlines were all involved in our bankruptcy contract negotiations but I think not since I think they all signed the agreement knowing that Delta was stepping in to take over Pinnacle once we emerged from bankruptcy with that sham of a bankruptcy contract. I think it was the chairman of our own MEC at Pinnacle said they were all involved in the contract "bridge to know where" agreements and he told us that Delta would shut us down if we did not sign. This is just a legal coercion by corporate america and the reps of the Delta pilot were there to make sure they got a say in our future. There is where my bitterness comes from. If you try and say like so many other uninformed Delta pilots that I am every other pinnacle pilot has a way into Delta you are wrong. The wording and time frame of the Bridge agreement is so weak, it is not even a glimmer of hope for 75% of the pilot group. Do you really think any of us want to stick around for 4+ years to get an interview for Delta when they can change the requirements at anytime when its time to interview a pinnacle pilot? Was it the Delta pilots that allowed Delta to add 70 more large regional Jets to use as carrots for screwing Pinnacle? Or the parking of hundreds of CRJ 200's to save Delta hundreds of millions in maintenance costs? Delta corporation did the dirty work here in orchestrating this move but the Delta pilots helped lay out the tools and saw the profits from Pinnacle, the parking of the 200's, to fund their pay raises and profit sharing checks. You Delta pilots have rates for the CRJ 900 but still allowed more outsourcing and the purchasing of another ALPA carrier to fly an airplane which you have rates for. You do not see why I would be bitter?

 

[xjhawk]

But let me be clear on something here. As a regional pilot I am bitter and see the big picture as I am on the crappy end of this system our mainline pilots have given us. But as someone who wants to be a future mainline pilot, I would love to get hired on at any of the majors including Delta but would voice my concern over what is right and wrong to my unions leaders to change the system.

 

[xjhawk]

Easy XJ. Yes, BL is a DL guy. Look, it might not be right, but hopefully many of you guys get over to mainline and enjoy the progression due to scheduled retirements and hopefully growth too. Just relax a bit and keep applying and you'll get to where you want to go.


Bye Bye---General Lee

A friend of mine did some number crunching and the rate in which Delta has announced for its hiring and classes. The first few classes of 50 will be mostly returning Delta pilots and then those are all done there will be some Compass, a small number of XJ grandfathered flows and a very small trickle of "Endeavor" pilots under the Bridge Agreement. Then, just as the gates could open up for Pinnacle (Endeavor) pilots, Delta is forecasting hiring 20 a month through the rest of 2014. At that rate, I will be mostly Compass pilots joining Delta taking another year away for Pinnacle pilots to have an opportunity to leave the crap hole we are working in. On top of that, Delta has seemed to given us more flying and I and many other reserves are crediting 90 hours a month at 11 days off because we are short. Endeavor is junior manning constantly and losing FO's so fast (See FO pay scales to see why) we will always be understaffed. So why would Delta hire any Pinnacle pilot if it means canceled Delta flights? All it takes is to interview and say.....No thanks, you do not meet our standards and not hire any of us.

I am working at Pinnacle to use it as a means to pay for my family and stay current until I can leave. For some idiot to tell me this crap-shows they are idiots-Delta pilot or not. The fact that he is a Delta pilot makes it worse as they should not be as ignorant of the situation especially if they are profiting off Pinnacle pilots situation.

 

[Quack]

XJ,

No offense, but why in the hell are you waiting around for delta anyways? If the company and union make you mad as hell right now, what do you think it's going to be like when you get there? Delta, like every other company that uses union labor, is going to get away with whatever benefits the company the most. Vicious cycle....

 

[General Lee]

A friend of mine did some number crunching and the rate in which Delta has announced for its hiring and classes. The first few classes of 50 will be mostly returning Delta pilots and then those are all done there will be some Compass, a small number of XJ grandfathered flows and a very small trickle of "Endeavor" pilots under the Bridge Agreement. Then, just as the gates could open up for Pinnacle (Endeavor) pilots, Delta is forecasting hiring 20 a month through the rest of 2014. At that rate, I will be mostly Compass pilots joining Delta taking another year away for Pinnacle pilots to have an opportunity to leave the crap hole we are working in. On top of that, Delta has seemed to given us more flying and I and many other reserves are crediting 90 hours a month at 11 days off because we are short. Endeavor is junior manning constantly and losing FO's so fast (See FO pay scales to see why) we will always be understaffed. So why would Delta hire any Pinnacle pilot if it means canceled Delta flights? All it takes is to interview and say.....No thanks, you do not meet our standards and not hire any of us.

I am working at Pinnacle to use it as a means to pay for my family and stay current until I can leave. For some idiot to tell me this crap-shows they are idiots-Delta pilot or not. The fact that he is a Delta pilot makes it worse as they should not be as ignorant of the situation especially if they are profiting off Pinnacle pilots situation.

XJ,

I have also heard a bunch of furlough bypass people will be returning, even a current SWA pilot I talked to who told me he was "bored." Anyway, the 300-400 projected number for hiring next year MIGHT be on the low side, according to rumors in the training department (sim guys). I think it might be a lot more, and it will go on for years. The other Majors haven't really started in earnest either, besides CAL taking UAL furloughees. Eventually all 3 Majors will be hiring huge numbers at the same time, and that will affect staffing at Regionals and LCCs.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[scoreboardII]

Thanks for the comments Red.

Let us know when you fly to over 400 domestic destinations and if you can do it with just a fluff....doubtful

Bill, give us a recommendation, should SWA outsource to an RJ or turboprop outfit so we can get to 400 destinations?

Seriously, this country needs to deal that there really isn't 400 cities deserving jet type service.

 

[waveflyer]

You're so transparent GL

 

[PuffDriver]

Okay so maybe I am mistaken about the Delta pilot union, ALPA National (who is at the head of that union? oh, a Delta pilot), and Delta airlines were all involved in our bankruptcy contract negotiations but I think not since I think they all signed the agreement knowing that Delta was stepping in to take over Pinnacle once we emerged from bankruptcy with that sham of a bankruptcy contract. I think it was the chairman of our own MEC at Pinnacle said they were all involved in the contract "bridge to know where" agreements and he told us that Delta would shut us down if we did not sign. This is just a legal coercion by corporate america and the reps of the Delta pilot were there to make sure they got a say in our future. There is where my bitterness comes from. If you try and say like so many other uninformed Delta pilots that I am every other pinnacle pilot has a way into Delta you are wrong. The wording and time frame of the Bridge agreement is so weak, it is not even a glimmer of hope for 75% of the pilot group. Do you really think any of us want to stick around for 4+ years to get an interview for Delta when they can change the requirements at anytime when its time to interview a pinnacle pilot? Was it the Delta pilots that allowed Delta to add 70 more large regional Jets to use as carrots for screwing Pinnacle? Or the parking of hundreds of CRJ 200's to save Delta hundreds of millions in maintenance costs? Delta corporation did the dirty work here in orchestrating this move but the Delta pilots helped lay out the tools and saw the profits from Pinnacle, the parking of the 200's, to fund their pay raises and profit sharing checks. You Delta pilots have rates for the CRJ 900 but still allowed more outsourcing and the purchasing of another ALPA carrier to fly an airplane which you have rates for. You do not see why I would be bitter?

But let me be clear on something here. As a regional pilot I am bitter and see the big picture as I am on the crappy end of this system our mainline pilots have given us. But as someone who wants to be a future mainline pilot, I would love to get hired on at any of the majors including Delta but would voice my concern over what is right and wrong to my unions leaders to change the system.

A friend of mine did some number crunching and the rate in which Delta has announced for its hiring and classes. The first few classes of 50 will be mostly returning Delta pilots and then those are all done there will be some Compass, a small number of XJ grandfathered flows and a very small trickle of "Endeavor" pilots under the Bridge Agreement. Then, just as the gates could open up for Pinnacle (Endeavor) pilots, Delta is forecasting hiring 20 a month through the rest of 2014. At that rate, I will be mostly Compass pilots joining Delta taking another year away for Pinnacle pilots to have an opportunity to leave the crap hole we are working in. On top of that, Delta has seemed to given us more flying and I and many other reserves are crediting 90 hours a month at 11 days off because we are short. Endeavor is junior manning constantly and losing FO's so fast (See FO pay scales to see why) we will always be understaffed. So why would Delta hire any Pinnacle pilot if it means canceled Delta flights? All it takes is to interview and say.....No thanks, you do not meet our standards and not hire any of us.

I am working at Pinnacle to use it as a means to pay for my family and stay current until I can leave. For some idiot to tell me this crap-shows they are idiots-Delta pilot or not. The fact that he is a Delta pilot makes it worse as they should not be as ignorant of the situation especially if they are profiting off Pinnacle pilots situation.

So other than that, how are things?

You are worse than wave with the complaining. You'll last about 5 minutes in new hire school with the attitude that the world owes you and you have it sooooo much worse than anyone else. Pilots have been doing what you are going through for ages. Like wave, you are unique-just like everybody else.

All I can say about the next gen of pilots is: wow

 

[General Lee]

Bill, give us a recommendation, should SWA outsource to an RJ or turboprop outfit so we can get to 400 destinations?

Seriously, this country needs to deal that there really isn't 400 cities deserving jet type service.

You are still outsourcing to cheaper labor flying most of your "INTL" routes to Mexico and the Caribbean. Oh wait, they are flying the same sized planes (737) and you are paying them less? Whhhhhaaaaaatttt? Who HAD to agree to that deal? Outsourcing can come in different forms, and you guys are doing it to your own "brothers and sisters." Shame on you!


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[DTW320]

So other than that, how are things?

You are worse than wave with the complaining. You'll last about 5 minutes in new hire school with the attitude that the world owes you and you have it sooooo much worse than anyone else. Pilots have been doing what you are going through for ages. Like wave, you are unique-just like everybody else.

All I can say about the next gen of pilots is: wow

+1

No kidding. The whining is unbelievable.

At the risk of sounding like some old fart "back in my day" kind of guy, I came up through the regionals before the RJ era. Flew 19 seat turboprops 8 or 10 legs a day, never got above 12,000 ft.,in the weather, non precision approaches to uncontrolled fields at night, in marginally maintained a/c day in and day out. If you were "senior" you flew the 30 seat turboprops 5 - 6 legs a day. No FMS, heck, no autopilot on the 19 seaters. Captains topped out around 40k, about 65k in today's dollars.

And guess what. NO ONE bitched or whined about it.

Guys without college degrees setup their lifestyle for the 40K or had a side business. Guys with degrees went home after a trip and typed resumes or updates to go in the mail the next day. Kept your ear to the ground, networked, called HR people at any airline better than yours. Never whined or claimed that your mainline affiliate's pilots were screwing you over in some way. You recognized how the system worked and you played the game and kept increasing your quals in the hopes of getting a shot.

Puff is right. With only minor variations, this is what folks have gone through for years in an effort to get where they wanted to be. There is such a long history of this that no one can seriously claim that they didn't think it would be this way when they got into this career.

He's also right about another thing. I've seen whiners in several new hires classes I've been in over the years. With only very few exceptions, those guys never made it to the line.

 

[GogglesPisano]

+1

No kidding. The whining is unbelievable.

At the risk of sounding like some old fart "back in my day" kind of guy, I came up through the regionals before the RJ era. Flew 19 seat turboprops 8 or 10 legs a day, never got above 12,000 ft.,in the weather, non precision approaches to uncontrolled fields at night, in marginally maintained a/c day in and day out. If you were "senior" you flew the 30 seat turboprops 5 - 6 legs a day. No FMS, heck, no autopilot on the 19 seaters. Captains topped out around 40k, about 65k in today's dollars.

And guess what. NO ONE bitched or whined about it.

Guys without college degrees setup their lifestyle for the 40K or had a side business. Guys with degrees went home after a trip and typed resumes or updates to go in the mail the next day. Kept your ear to the ground, networked, called HR people at any airline better than yours. Never whined or claimed that your mainline affiliate's pilots were screwing you over in some way. You recognized how the system worked and you played the game and kept increasing your quals in the hopes of getting a shot.

Puff is right. With only minor variations, this is what folks have gone through for years in an effort to get where they wanted to be. There is such a long history of this that no one can seriously claim that they didn't think it would be this way when they got into this career.

He's also right about another thing. I've seen whiners in several new hires classes I've been in over the years. With only very few exceptions, those guys never made it to the line.

Agreed 100%. Throws a wrench in the whole, "Everyone with an ATP is equal, it's all luck," argument.

We're not all equal. It's not all luck. There's a lot of blood, sweat, tears, networking, hard work and door-knocking involved. Camping out at a regional and waiting for your mainline job to be handed to you because, "You're entitled," is not a good career strategy.

The flow-through and preferential hiring schemes make me sick.

 

[waveflyer]

So other than that, how are things?

You are worse than wave with the complaining. You'll last about 5 minutes in new hire school with the attitude that the world owes you and you have it sooooo much worse than anyone else. Pilots have been doing what you are going through for ages. Like wave, you are unique-just like everybody else.

All I can say about the next gen of pilots is: wow

You can't see how things have changed in the commuter/regional world in the last 10 years??

 

[waveflyer]

+1

No kidding. The whining is unbelievable.

At the risk of sounding like some old fart "back in my day" kind of guy, I came up through the regionals before the RJ era. Flew 19 seat turboprops 8 or 10 legs a day, never got above 12,000 ft.,in the weather, non precision approaches to uncontrolled fields at night, in marginally maintained a/c day in and day out. If you were "senior" you flew the 30 seat turboprops 5 - 6 legs a day. No FMS, heck, no autopilot on the 19 seaters. Captains topped out around 40k, about 65k in today's dollars.

And guess what. NO ONE bitched or whined about it.

Guys without college degrees setup their lifestyle for the 40K or had a side business. Guys with degrees went home after a trip and typed resumes or updates to go in the mail the next day. Kept your ear to the ground, networked, called HR people at any airline better than yours. Never whined or claimed that your mainline affiliate's pilots were screwing you over in some way. You recognized how the system worked and you played the game and kept increasing your quals in the hopes of getting a shot.

Puff is right. With only minor variations, this is what folks have gone through for years in an effort to get where they wanted to be. There is such a long history of this that no one can seriously claim that they didn't think it would be this way when they got into this career.

He's also right about another thing. I've seen whiners in several new hires classes I've been in over the years. With only very few exceptions, those guys never made it to the line.

Wow, you did?? ???

8 legs, no autopilots????? How did you manage?
None of my generation EVER had to do any of that...

Right.

So now imagine doing everything that you just said, legacy for 2+ years, 9/11, furloughed, then outsourcing RJs triples.

You don't see the difference?

 

[General Lee]

Wow, you did?? ???

8 legs, no autopilots????? How did you manage?
None of my generation EVER had to do any of that...

Right.

So now imagine doing everything that you just said, legacy for 2+ years, 9/11, furloughed, then outsourcing RJs triples.

You don't see the difference?

Wave, sometimes you probably feel like you are back at the "Commuters" too...6 leg days intra Texas, flying that old 733. Yeah, you do. No thanks. The current SWA guy I just talked to who was a DL furloughee back in 2002 (year 2000 hire) can't wait to get back to a NOV recall class, said SWA was really boring and a possible upgrade in OAK or LAS doesn't help when he lives in ORF. He was excited to get back and have options when it comes to flying, and not stagnation in his current situation. Good for him.

So Wavey, fix your own lower priced, same plane outsourcing while you're at it, you hypocrite.



Bye Bye---General Lee