Would you takeoff 25 lbs over gross?

[A1FlyBoy]

Fuel trucks can remove X gallons from each wing upon request.

 

[Milkdud99]

Carry an empty 5-gallon gas can with you to the airport. (I don't know why they call those things cans when they're actually made of plastic, but that's another thread..) Before you go fly, drain 2.5 gallons from each wing into the empty plastic can. Take a Sharpie permanent marker with you so you can label the plastic 5-gallon gas can with the type of fuel. (You wouldn't want to mix up 100LL with 87 Unleaded or Diesel 2.) Put the 5-gallon plastic can behind the back seat.
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If you take it outa the wing and put it in the back seat.. .now ur 26lbs over weight (including the "can)

 

[cynic]

Fly naked

 

[Checks]

Big D...you hit the nail on the head. I even printed off your statement about "Where do you draw the Line?" and posted it on the bulletin board at work

 

[FN FAL]

Big D...you hit the nail on the head. I even printed off your statement about "Where do you draw the Line?" and posted it on the bulletin board at work

You might also want to go to your state's statutes and copy the stat relevant to criminal negligence. If you think about drawing a line and that line is outside of the aircraft limitations or the FAR's, it won't be that hard for a prosecutor to convince a jury to convict.

 

[FN FAL]

Fourth of July weekend, full tanks, luggage, four people in a 172...Rod Serling could narrate this one...

CHI94LA216
On July 1, 1994, at 1119 central daylight time, a Cessna 172, N7472X, registered to Dale L. Storm of Black Creek, Wisconsin, collided with trees and the terrain during initial takeoff climb from runway 27 (1,350' x 90', grass) at the Shiocton Airstrip, Shiocton, Wisconsin. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed and a VFR flight plan was filed. The private pilot and two passengers were seriously injured. A third passenger received minor injuries. The airplane was destroyed by impact and post crash fire. The flight was departing for La Crosse, Wisconsin, when the accident occurred.

The pilot stated, the winds were westerly at approximately 23 knots and the takeoff was normal. He reported that as he neared the wooded area west of the airport "...it seemed as if the wind stopped. I had no lift, airspeed started to drop." He stated he lowered the nose to increase airspeed but that the "winds were pushing down on plane." The airplane crashed in the wooded area and was destroyed by fire. The pilot stated he made the takeoff using 10 degrees of flaps and that the stall warning horn sounded prior to impacting the trees.

Two witnesses reported seeing the airplane take off "slowly" and it was "slow getting up in the air." One of the passengers stated the pilot initially attempted to take off on runway 36 (2,240' x 100') but was unable to get airborne. The pilot then elected to take off on runway 27.

Yea, I know they don't say anything about luggage and full fuel, but they were on their way to Iowa, with a stop in LaCrosse...probably to drop the kids off (Daughter and boyfriend). Shiocton has club fuel...and you know how cheap club fuel car gas is.

 

[MVSW]

Fly naked

I think I like this idea!!!!

Do it...It will teach you some lessons.
1. If you make it, it will scare the living *&%# out of you and you will probably never do it again and you just might shart on yourself.
2. it wont matter b/c you and your friends wont be here

So take your pick!!! I would stay home and drink a lil crown

 

[flyboyzz1]

yup sure would

 

[TurboS7]

Let me know where you are flying from and what FBO and what time. I will call the 1800 FAA WELOVEYOU line and make sure they are there to help you out.

 

[gern_blanston]

Here's what my 1st chief pilot used to tell us regarding decision-making:
Imagine yourself in front of the adminstrative law judge from the NTSB explaining your position after a drunk guy in a '150 taxis into you while you're in the runup area, drawing the full investigative attention of the FAA to your proposed flight.
YOU didn't crash. YOU didn't do anything to attract the attention of the Friendly Aviators Association. You didn't do anything but hope you wouldn't get caught.
But now YOU have to explain your decision to the Feds, who have gone over every inch of you, your pax, and your plane, with a fine-toothed comb.

 

[Lead Sled]

Well said BigD

The plane will fly just fine 25 over gross. But that's not the point. You'll do 25 and get away with it, and next time you'll be faced with the same question, only it's 50 pounds. Where are you going to draw the line?

bigD hit the nail square on the head. The airplane will fly just fine 25 pounds over. It will even fly just fine 250 pounds over. It gets better - if it's not a Part 135 airplane, it probably hasn't been weighed recently. Since airplanes have a tendency to gain weight with age, I would be very surprised if your W&B figures in the flight manual are correct. But as bigD said, that's not the point.

One of the big lessons that all pilots need to learn if they want to grow old is what is safe isn't always legal and what is legal isn't always safe. A pilot has to simultaneously operate within 3 specific spheres to maintain an acceptable level of safety:

1. The pilot’s individual limitations. A freshly soloed student pilot will have different personal limitations than a 500-hour private pilot, who will have different personal limitations than a 20,000-hour airline captain.

2. The aircraft’s limitations. There will always be aircraft that are more suited for a particular mission than another. A Super Cub might be just the ticket for flying off of a sand bar in Alaska, but you wouldn’t want to try shooting an ILS to minimums in icing conditions in one. A Lear is one fine airplane, but it isn’t the machine you want to be operating if your runway is only 3,000’ long. All aircraft have limitations whether they are a Super Cub or a B747. A Cessna 172 is probably one of the finest general aviation aircraft ever built and it has one of the best safety records. Can it be misused? Of course – fill it with fuel, put four people in it, and try taking off from an airport in Colorado during the middle of summer. You’ll probably make the headlines in the local papers.

3. The legal limitations imposed by the FARs.

Flight safety is, in large part, a mind set that allows you to keep within those three spheres. Where pilots get into trouble is when they attempt to operate outside of the area where all three of those spheres intersect. The accident record is full of reports where highly experienced airline or corporate pilots “bought the farm” trying to operate in conditions that the aircraft wasn’t suitably equipped to handle. (For example, trying to shoot an ILS to minimums in icing conditions in a Super Cub.) The same thing goes for “VFR only" private pilots continuing into IFR conditions in suitably equipped aircraft. The same would be true of an experienced pilot trying to operate a light twin under conditions that would leave him/her “hanging” if an engine quit.

You’ve heard the old saying…

“There are old pilots and there are bold pilots, but there are no old, bold pilots.”

You can ignore the dangers, and place your trust in the laws of probability. (After all, they say that nowadays, an engine failure is a “once in a career” occurrence – yeah, right!) But remember, if you choose this path, the danger doesn’t go away, it merely lies in wait.

Hey, we’ve all been there. In the exuberance of youth and with the desire and drive to build up our flying credentials many of us are willing to do just about anything to get our hands on an airplane. There was a time when I wouldn't have given much thought to operating properly equipped and maintained single-engine or multiengine light airplane almost anywhere, anytime day or night. That however, was a long time ago. I now have a much better understanding of just what can go wrong and realize that there are just some operations that are better off not being attempted.

As long as I’m quoting interesting old aviation sayings, here’s another one that I think pertains to the situation…

“A superior pilot is one who uses his superior judgment to avoid situations requiring the use of his superior skills.”

Oh well, I'll climb off of my soap box.

'Sled

 

[TurboS7]

I used to say what if you have a blow out and the airplane goes in the ditch. At that point one of my pilots said, drain the fuel, light a cigarette, throw it, and run.

 

[Lead Sled]

I used to say what if you have a blow out and the airplane goes in the ditch. At that point one of my pilots said, drain the fuel, light a cigarette, throw it, and run.

TurboS7...
That technique works best if you also throw the aircraft logs and records into the fire.

'Sled

 

[BD King]

TurboS7...
That technique works best if you also throw the aircraft logs and records into the fire.

'Sled

Ain't allowed. The EPA will be all over ya like a dirty sheet.

www.bdkingpress.com

 

[apcooper]

Problem has been resolved. Called the FBO and they told me that two pilots before me have booked the plane and it will be down about 2 hrs from full fuel. I will therefore be 75 lbs UNDER gross at takeoff and not only legal but safe. Since I didn't violate an regs by simply discussing the matter y'all can stop flaming me now!


As for being criminally charged that would be much more difficult than proving a pilot violated a reg. Except in very extreme cases(IE: flying drunk, threatning the crew or vanzalizing an aircraft amont other extreme actions) I have never heard of that happening in a GA plane without willful intent in the USA. Some colorful comments for sure FAN FAL! Last time I checked there was no FAR that states that it is a violation to discuss violating an FAR. Thank you.

 

[TonyC]

...check me if I'm wrong here...

Take 30 pounds out of the wings and put it in the back...the airplane will still be 25 over gross, no? Just because it isn't in the wings, doesn't mean it isn't in the airplane...

If you take it outa the wing and put it in the back seat.. .now ur 26lbs over weight (including the "can)

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[TrafficInSight]

Problem has been resolved. Called the FBO and they told me that two pilots before me have booked the plane and it will be down about 2 hrs from full fuel. I will therefore be 75 lbs UNDER gross at takeoff and not only legal but safe. Since I didn't violate an regs by simply discussing the matter y'all can stop flaming me now!


As for being criminally charged that would be much more difficult than proving a pilot violated a reg. Except in very extreme cases(IE: flying drunk, threatning the crew or vanzalizing an aircraft amont other extreme actions) I have never heard of that happening in a GA plane without willful intent in the USA. Some colorful comments for sure FAN FAL! Last time I checked there was no FAR that states that it is a violation to discuss violating an FAR. Thank you.

You've been misled... there actually aren't any FAR's anymore

 

[FN FAL]

Problem has been resolved. Called the FBO and they told me that two pilots before me have booked the plane and it will be down about 2 hrs from full fuel. I will therefore be 75 lbs UNDER gross at takeoff and not only legal but safe.

Awsome, that wasn't that hard now, was it? Just make sure you dipstick the plane before you go and fly your plan.

As for being criminally charged, that would be much more difficult than proving a pilot violated a reg. Except in very extreme cases(IE: flying drunk, threatning the crew or vanzalizing an aircraft amont other extreme actions) I have never heard of that happening in a GA plane without willful intent in the USA.

It doesn't have to be extreme cases, all you need is property damage, injury or death.

As far as the compairson of being convicted by an administrative law judge for a FAR violation v. being convicted in a criminal court? Hahaha...you can be tried by both...there is no federal preemption and in fact, the conviction in the administrative law court can be used as evidence in the criminal case.

Standards of Liability

Civil Liability

Simple negligence is the least culpable level of legal liability. It is usually defined as the failure to exercise "ordinary care in the circumstances." Liability does not attach to such misconduct unless the negligence is a cause of injury or damages. In the aviation industry, the violation of regulations such as the FARs, and failure to comply with good operating practices or procedures, may constitute a breach of the duty to exercise ordinary care. In this regard, airline and Part 135 charter operators are held to the "highest duty of care" because they act as common carriers when holding themselves out to the public — they carry anyone for hire. Private operators on the other hand are generally held to the standard of "ordinary care."

Federal Aviation Administration enforcement actions involve a different type of civil liability. The FAA is empowered by the Federal Aviation Act to issue certificates and licenses to regulate the industry. As a result, the FAA can bring enforcement actions and revoke or suspend the certificates or issue civil penalties when there have been violations of their rules. These proceedings are administrative law proceedings and are not criminal in nature. Indeed the FAA itself cannot bring criminal charges against aviation professionals; the FAA must refer such charges to the U.S. Justice Department for prosecution.

Criminal Liability

Criminal liability is established by federal criminal statute and various state criminal laws. It is important to understand that every state has its own criminal laws, and these laws vary significantly from state to state. Further, the states are not preempted from enacting laws to impose criminal sanctions on aviation personnel who engage in reckless conduct leading to injury, death or property damage.

 

[Lead Sled]

Problem has been resolved. Called the FBO and they told me that two pilots before me have booked the plane and it will be down about 2 hrs from full fuel. I will therefore be 75 lbs UNDER gross at takeoff and not only legal but safe. Since I didn't violate an regs by simply discussing the matter y'all can stop flaming me now!

Hey, they're just having a little fun. Actually, I respect you for asking the question. It's shows integrity on your part. Pilots run into this all of the time - to one degree or another. Is it OK for a mid-sized bizjet to takeoff 300 pounds overweight? or an airliner to take off 3,000 overweight? (The percentages are the same.) A couple of years ago I quit a corporate job that I held for 15 years because I consistantly refused to fly airplanes that were being operated "slightly" overweight or "slightly" out of the c.g. envelope. The chief pilot's rationalization...

"They build enough safety margin into the charts so that we can safely ignore them."

No you can't.

'Sled

 

[Milkdud99]

You've been misled... there actually aren't any FAR's anymore

This might be unrelated... but can i call "you" as soon as i see you or would that be wrong??
LOL
(not telephone call)

 

[minitour]

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yep...I bit...dammit...

-mini

 

[Publishers]

altitude above you, runway behind you, and weight you did not need on board for the flight.......... things most useless for a pilot.

 

[TonyC]

... weight you did not need on board for the flight.

We called those navigators.










justajoke, justajoke...







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[transpondersoff]

This guy is baiting us!!!!!!!!!

Well I do hear he is a master baitor.

 

[Whiskey Tango]

altitude above you, runway behind you, and weight you did not need on board for the flight.......... things most useless for a pilot.

I thought it was altitude above you, runway behind you, and fuel in the fuel truck...

 

[Some guy]

I wouldn't go overweight. I would improvise a little though...

1. Fill all empty spaces with helium balloons.
2. Fly without the doors.
3. Does the airport have a catapult?

Can anyone else help improvise?

 

[TonyC]

Can anyone else help improvise?

Have the passengers hold one foot off the floor for the first 30 minutes of flight.



Have one passenger sit in the other's lap.





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[MVSW]

Hey, they're just having a little fun. Actually, I respect you for asking the question. It's shows integrity on your part. Pilots run into this all of the time - to one degree or another. Is it OK for a mid-sized bizjet to takeoff 300 pounds overweight? or an airliner to take off 3,000 overweight? (The percentages are the same.) A couple of years ago I quit a corporate job that I held for 15 years because I consistantly refused to fly airplanes that were being operated "slightly" overweight or "slightly" out of the c.g. envelope. The chief pilot's rationalization...

"They build enough safety margin into the charts so that we can safely ignore them."

No you can't.

'Sled

You said it!! They are there for a reason. I had a professor at my university that was a Cessna test pilot tell me that "those number in the poh are from a NEW airplane". And i bet that plane is not new.

 

[Some guy]

I wouldn't go overweight. I would improvise a little though...

1. Fill all empty spaces with helium balloons.
2. Fly without the doors.
3. Does the airport have a catapult?

Can anyone else help improvise?

Here's another. Warmer fuel weighs less than cold fuel (per gallon). Just have the fuel heated to about 300°F. This be enough to take 25 lbs off.

 

[Milkdud99]

I wouldn't go overweight. I would improvise a little though...

1. Fill all empty spaces with helium balloons.
2. Fly without the doors.
3. Does the airport have a catapult?

Can anyone else help improvise?

Have the Pax jump during rotation!! Less weight for liftoff!