Woo Hoo

[Britpilot]

Re: Age

You were hired by someone before you turned 40. We're talking about getting on with a commuter airline after the age of 40. I was nearing 40 as I hit the mins for commuters and more than exceeded them after I turned 40. I had a few commuter interviews before I turned 40, but not one thereafter. By that time a recession toppled over by the Gulf War hit and hiring virtually stopped. The 20-somethings which I referenced above were being hired.

Once again, I submit that the vast majority of commuters find 40-year-old career-changers to be anathema. That something is wrong if you changed careers, and especially to aviation. That you're some kind of diletante. To be fair about it, it is extremely hard to find a job in any industry past 40. That, somehow, you're over the hill. Over 50 and you're poisonous.

Once again, the question turns on when you started in aviation. I'd submit that your friend Bob started in aviation when he was young and so did the other, older folks you see and encounter. I maintain that regional hiring departments are generally prejudiced against older pilots, and especially career changers.

You're absolutely right about luck. It helps to have it, and to hit a hiring gusher and not a dry hole. Once again, I'm pleased that you made it

Yeah I was hired two months before I turned 40, and Bob was also hired post 40. I still belive that you are wrong in your statements hiring older pilots in the National airlines. (we are trying to lose the stigma of commuter) The crews that I was refering to that I meet on the road were hired older as are some of the folks at my airline that are junior to me. It is the interview that gets you hired.

 

[Caveman]

I was hired by a jet national at the ripe young age of 42 1/2. I was also offered jobs by another 121 carrier and by a jet freight outfit. The sum total of my aviation experience was 3 years of flight instructing and 12.3 hours of turbine time. I don't have a four year degree and I'm not a former military pilot. I got the impression during all the interviews that my age was a definite advantage for me. They all seemed to appreciate the 'maturity' I could bring to the job.

Granted this all happened in 1999-2000 when everyone was hiring. I don't know how it would have played out 5 years earlier. Nowadays, with the exact same quals I doubt that I could even land a decent job. Well qualified prior to 9/11 could mean being at the bottom of the resume pile today. I'm very grateful for the job I have and to be working for one of the better companies. As I'm finding out, timing and seniority are EVERYTHING in this industry.

 

[Britpilot]

[. As I'm finding out, timing and seniority is EVERYTHING in this industry. [/B]

Amen...............

 

[Timebuilder]

I'll second that.

Who would have thought that I'd be watching ITT temps at startup only four months after being laid off from my flight instructing job?

I know it doesn't make sense. I sure am grateful, though!

 

[bobbysamd]

Life begins at 40 . . . sometimes

I'm glad that you guys did well. I know only from my experiences and those of others I've known. I was 40 and with an ATP and with good multi. Also, for what it was worth, I had a Citation type. I instructed in a respected program(s). My (much) younger colleagues with less time were getting hired by the commuters. I was not. Nothing unique, e.g. 135 time, set them apart from me. I had a friend with excellent quals, several ratings, and who is my age within a few days, who found out that he was rejected, flat out, because of age. This was only a few years ago, during the last hiring gusher.

You go figure it out. I did.

I'd also add that while the interview may get you hired you first have to get the interview. To get the interview you must send in a resume. Try to get the interview when even a commuter H.R. conehead can determine your (older) age from your resume.

 

[Britpilot]

Re: Life begins at 40 . . . sometimes

. I had a friend with excellent quals, several ratings, and who is my age within a few days, and he found out that he was rejected, flat out, because of his age. This was only a few years ago, during the last hiring gusher.

You go figure it out. I did. [/B]

Perhaps there was something else that prevented yourself and friend from being hired. I know that the company who interviewed him would not reject him just because of age. That is not legal and if it did occur he has some recourse. As has been proven on these boards it is possible to get hired and have that second career post 40. It does take some persistance and a positive attitude. Why not try again? There are companys out there hiring now.

 

[bobbysamd]

Age discrimination cases

To believe a company would not hire someone strictly because of age is naive. The Age Discrimination in Employment Act et al makes age discrimination in hiring illegal. So, yeah, you have recourse, all right. Proving it is another matter.

Employment cases are extremely difficult because they are so dependent on evidence. The evidence would include such things as company documents, which, you would hope, would say that the applicant was rejected because of age. Of course, no one would be so stupid as to put something like that in writing. Someone might actually say it, but deny it later. Someone might have heard it said, but using it as evidence is difficult because it is hearsay. Try to get someone from the company to serve as your witness to your age discrimination claim. It's hard to gather proof in an employment case, and the proof has to meet a certain threshold and satisfy several requirements to make a prima facie case.

Then, if you do go forward, you have to jump through some major hoops, such as getting past federal and state EEOCs before getting at the company. Then, if you argue that you were discriminated against because of age, the company just has to say is it didn't interview you because it didn't feel that you were qualified, despite the fact that you met or exceeded every requirement it had, published or otherwise. It's your opinion against their's that you were qualified. It is all subjective. Why is it that you can take ten applicants who are virtual clones of each other who've applied for ten openings and one might be hired? An aviation company's defense in a hiring case will always be safety. And, the laws of many, if not most, states are stacked in favor of employers.

All this is how companies get away with age discrimination.

I do know persistence, my friend. I sent stuff to commuters for years, and to a couple, for many years. I am no better qualified now than I was then, and I am nine years older now. With so many better-qualified, and younger, pilots than me looking for work, trying again would be futile.

I do appreciate your comments. I'm sure you mean well. But, older career-changers need to be extremely realistic about their expectations in this business.

 

[ILS JNKY]

age

I, also changed professions a year or two ago,and i think that age will form a positive step for me in that I have at least 14 years to fly before having to retire.

Left sales and marketing about 1.5 years ago and glade I did, but do remember that we have to be on our game when interviewing and it is the time when you must sell why you are different than any one else, rember no bashing the competition.

Give a great presentation of your self and your ablities confirm and answer all question,. field all objections, and then close&close&close , stats show that 85% of all sales transactions, no one asks for the order.

Never been on a job interview where it was any different, it never is.

The only thing that changes is product knowledge, that is why we all attened the various flight schools locaited across the country.

 

[aero99]

Discrminiation does happen...everywhere. Bobby made the perfect point that to prove it is another matter.

Used to work for a company that would only hire female sales people. I was in management and the President of the company would "pre- interview" the apps before I received them. They were ALL women. I even asked him point blank and he admitted it. Right after he admitted to it (and he thought about what he said) he hired a male. He was fired within 4 months for non-standard work ethics. I interviewed the guy and he was not material for our company, but he was hired. Same thing happend about every 18 months.

After a few years with the company I wanted out of management and in sales. Guess what....never happened. I was more than qualified (but not overqual'ed) and was rejected everytime I brought it up.

It irritated me at first, and I thought I could sue and raise hell...but I had not one lick of proof and the company HAD hired males in the past at that point so it would do no good. I got over it and went to work for myself.

Discrimiation is a no win situation for everyone. Reverse Discrimination as mentioned above is the result of discrimination laws gone amuck and makes matters even worse.

 

[TurboS7]

I think that being a woman has all the advantages and no disadvantages, but once they are hired senority is what makes or breaks the situation.

 

[avbug]

Age. Gender. Race. Big deal. What about ugly people? When are we gonna get a break? Huh?

I don't hear anyone championing us short ugly balding types?

And what about halitosis-challenged folks? Just because we happen to have really bad breath, doesn't mean we're bad people?

Don't even get me started on athletes foot!

When do all these little life-challenges start to be a plus?

 

[Britpilot]

Age. Gender. Race. Big deal. What about ugly people? When are we gonna get a break? Huh?

I don't hear anyone championing us short ugly balding types?

And what about halitosis-challenged folks? Just because we happen to have really bad breath, doesn't mean we're bad people?

Don't even get me started on athletes foot!

When do all these little life-challenges start to be a plus?

I'm with you but what about being British? I hear every bad British joke there is out there and the funny thing is I am no longer British. So for the record we are superior and we do not have an accent, you do

 

[Britpilot]

Re: Age discrimination cases

To believe a company would not hire someone strictly because of age is naive.
.

No not naive, been around the block too many times for that. My point is, I do know that discrimination exists, I also know that it does not exist every where either in traditional or reverse varities.
To those of you who think that post 40 airline employment is not an option, I say yes it is with a little luck and hard work.

 

[Prop Trash]

originally posted by Britpilot
Before you all start slaming me, I am a minority who prefers fair play at all levels.

Nigel, just because your crashpad is located in a neighborhood full of "minorities," that doesn't make you one too! Seriously, I'm 14% native American, do you think that'll help me get on with United when they hire again?

 

[Britpilot]

Nigel, just because your crashpad is located in a neighborhood full of "minorities," that doesn't make you one too! Seriously, I'm 14% native American, do you think that'll help me get on with United when they hire again?

Of course it will help you, Runs With Bears, so will the mental health waiver on your medical. Glad you made it home safe, big apple here I come. See you out there,