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Will United Survive?
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BS
You know what's included in the price of your SUV? A $10,000 - 15,000 PROFIT MARGIN. Profit, meaning money net of expenses including labor.
Let's keep the topics to aviation industry. Most pilots are barely knowledgeable about this field. If we digress you make us all look like horses *ss's
You know what's included in the price of your SUV? A $10,000 - 15,000 PROFIT MARGIN. Profit, meaning money net of expenses including labor.
Let's keep the topics to aviation industry. Most pilots are barely knowledgeable about this field. If we digress you make us all look like horses *ss's
HA25
Tokyo Tokyo!
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Re: BS
This is a very true statement..
as for F/A's making 50K (And more)... it, along with the wages of ramp and gate people is totally out of proportion with their education and work value in the business world, where Restaurant managers with years of experience and $1,000,000 in sales with in their stores are making $40,000 and Purchasing managers of mid sized building firms with MBA's are making $50,000 (two examples I know of personally)...
F/A should be a $25,000 year job for a few years and then you move onto other things...
hawkowl88 said:
This is a very true statement..
as for F/A's making 50K (And more)... it, along with the wages of ramp and gate people is totally out of proportion with their education and work value in the business world, where Restaurant managers with years of experience and $1,000,000 in sales with in their stores are making $40,000 and Purchasing managers of mid sized building firms with MBA's are making $50,000 (two examples I know of personally)...
F/A should be a $25,000 year job for a few years and then you move onto other things...
Meister Brau
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Falconjet
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FA
Wow: I usually find that V70T5 has pretty interesting things to say on this board. But I have to disagree a bit on this one, and many of the other ideas about limiting anybody's pay to some arbitrary level. Our forefathers fought to make this a free country, where the market place decides what "the job is worth". If anybody wants to start setting acceptable salaries for certain professions I'll volunteer to step in line right after professional athletes and CEOs of major corporations. We don't want anybody arbitrarily setting our salaries, FAs are no different. What are they suppossed to do after a few years, marry some Captain? Come on, I'm only a man of the 90's (thats 1890s!) but even I think that the FAs have every right to collective bargaining and making what the market will bear that we do.
Take it easy.
Wow: I usually find that V70T5 has pretty interesting things to say on this board. But I have to disagree a bit on this one, and many of the other ideas about limiting anybody's pay to some arbitrary level. Our forefathers fought to make this a free country, where the market place decides what "the job is worth". If anybody wants to start setting acceptable salaries for certain professions I'll volunteer to step in line right after professional athletes and CEOs of major corporations. We don't want anybody arbitrarily setting our salaries, FAs are no different. What are they suppossed to do after a few years, marry some Captain? Come on, I'm only a man of the 90's (thats 1890s!) but even I think that the FAs have every right to collective bargaining and making what the market will bear that we do.
Take it easy.
HA25
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Re: FA
Some good points FalconJet, and I totally agree with the free market setting price... And my comments weren't so much meant to say that the Government should regulate wages. However, the fact is that Unions are there to artificially modify the cost of labor in favor of the labor. They off set the tyranical tendency of managment to demand a lot and give a little.
For example, we know as pilots that if there were no pilot unions, there would be no 6 figure wage pilots. But for the unions keeping wages artificially high, the supply and demand curve for guys who want to fly for Delta, American, and Fedex would make for cheap labor for those guys, as many people think the job is cool, irrespective of what it pays...
I for one think a Union for jobs like Pilot, and other skilled careers is good and helps insure quality pilots. But unions for unskilled labor artificially cause high costs to airlines and other companies that have similar labor.
New F/A's can go from working a retail job, or being a home maker, to working the line within a month... Pilots can't (far from it).
They are unskilled labor and their safety value is minimal (mostly FAA lobbying by the AFA, otherwise there would be a mandetory retirement age). While, I acknowledge that they have some safety value, the fact is once the wheels are up, there isn't much they can do to stop panic if it starts. Usually passengers are enlisted to stop other passengers who have become unruly.
IMHO
Falconjet said:
Some good points FalconJet, and I totally agree with the free market setting price... And my comments weren't so much meant to say that the Government should regulate wages. However, the fact is that Unions are there to artificially modify the cost of labor in favor of the labor. They off set the tyranical tendency of managment to demand a lot and give a little.
For example, we know as pilots that if there were no pilot unions, there would be no 6 figure wage pilots. But for the unions keeping wages artificially high, the supply and demand curve for guys who want to fly for Delta, American, and Fedex would make for cheap labor for those guys, as many people think the job is cool, irrespective of what it pays...
I for one think a Union for jobs like Pilot, and other skilled careers is good and helps insure quality pilots. But unions for unskilled labor artificially cause high costs to airlines and other companies that have similar labor.
New F/A's can go from working a retail job, or being a home maker, to working the line within a month... Pilots can't (far from it).
They are unskilled labor and their safety value is minimal (mostly FAA lobbying by the AFA, otherwise there would be a mandetory retirement age). While, I acknowledge that they have some safety value, the fact is once the wheels are up, there isn't much they can do to stop panic if it starts. Usually passengers are enlisted to stop other passengers who have become unruly.
IMHO
Ty Webb
Hostage to Fortune
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Re: Re: BS
Uh, hold on there, Chief. A Wal-mart manager makes between $85K-$100K. If you have friends with MBA's that are making $50K it's for a reason. Maybe they're just out of school, or won;t move to where the money is, or just plain ol' don;t have the drive, but to use that as a prism through which to view the worl of compensation . . . . well, that's a little distorted.
FA's should make, after a few years, some decent coin, certainly enough to live on . . . . IF they do a good job, and CONTINUE to do a good job (as opposed to becoming senior, disgruntled "Galley Hags". They are THE customer contact. When the people get off the airplane, and they are happy, it's not because of your landing, Sporto. It's because they were treated well in the back by their point of contact with the company.
So, sorry, put me down as one pilot who thinks FA's should be compensated well. How well? Well, we start ours in the mid $20K's . . I think they should probably be able to get into the mid $30K range, but only if they deliver.
V70T5 said:
Uh, hold on there, Chief. A Wal-mart manager makes between $85K-$100K. If you have friends with MBA's that are making $50K it's for a reason. Maybe they're just out of school, or won;t move to where the money is, or just plain ol' don;t have the drive, but to use that as a prism through which to view the worl of compensation . . . . well, that's a little distorted.
FA's should make, after a few years, some decent coin, certainly enough to live on . . . . IF they do a good job, and CONTINUE to do a good job (as opposed to becoming senior, disgruntled "Galley Hags". They are THE customer contact. When the people get off the airplane, and they are happy, it's not because of your landing, Sporto. It's because they were treated well in the back by their point of contact with the company.
So, sorry, put me down as one pilot who thinks FA's should be compensated well. How well? Well, we start ours in the mid $20K's . . I think they should probably be able to get into the mid $30K range, but only if they deliver.
KDA or DEATH
Member
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KORRECT!
Mr. Falcon is RIGHT.
The MARKET determines the WAGE.
PERIOD.
END OF STORY.
That wage may be out of line with others in DIFFERENT job categories and/or professions...BUT GUESS WHAT?...An APPLE is NOT an ORANGE.
I know this may be a hard concept for some of you...Perhaps you have a future in Management?
Love,
YKW
Mr. Falcon is RIGHT.
The MARKET determines the WAGE.
PERIOD.
END OF STORY.
That wage may be out of line with others in DIFFERENT job categories and/or professions...BUT GUESS WHAT?...An APPLE is NOT an ORANGE.
I know this may be a hard concept for some of you...Perhaps you have a future in Management?
Love,
YKW
HA25
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- 3,643
Re: Re: Re: BS
I would think you are talking about a Walmart Store Manager??? or Assistant? These are multi million dollar revenue centers. Those are usually well trained and educated managers..
Cause I can tell you that at Target, our neighbor's kid is a 4 year degree holder and a dept. manager for Clothing and she makes $35ish.... can't remember exact amount. She said the only way to get more money is to move up the management chain to assistant manager and then store manager which "can" break $100,000.... And I would hardly compare an F/A and her/his job duties with that of a department store or major retail store manager.. For that matter, I think the cashier at Walmart is more in line..
Ty Webb said:
I would think you are talking about a Walmart Store Manager??? or Assistant? These are multi million dollar revenue centers. Those are usually well trained and educated managers..
Cause I can tell you that at Target, our neighbor's kid is a 4 year degree holder and a dept. manager for Clothing and she makes $35ish.... can't remember exact amount. She said the only way to get more money is to move up the management chain to assistant manager and then store manager which "can" break $100,000.... And I would hardly compare an F/A and her/his job duties with that of a department store or major retail store manager.. For that matter, I think the cashier at Walmart is more in line..
HA25
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Re: KORRECT!
KDA, surely you don't think the market is operating in a vacuum? And surely you don't think that Unions are not modifiers of the natural supply and demand curve of labor?
See my post a few lines above about what jobs at the majors would pay if it were not for unions.... and I assure you that I am not a pro-management pilot, read my history of posts from past debates..
KDA or DEATH said:
KDA, surely you don't think the market is operating in a vacuum? And surely you don't think that Unions are not modifiers of the natural supply and demand curve of labor?
See my post a few lines above about what jobs at the majors would pay if it were not for unions.... and I assure you that I am not a pro-management pilot, read my history of posts from past debates..
Falconjet
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Back on track
V70T5 isn't slamming unions, but I don't think that just because you label one work group (FA in this case - your label not mine) as unskilled that they don't deserve to earn what the market will bear. Just my opinion, but I think all labor groups ought to have the right to bargain for their compensation. Hopefully United will be around long enough for us all to look back on this and go "phew, I remember when United almost went down the tube" and their employee/owner groups will save the company by changing their perception of what the new market really is.
Peace!
V70T5 isn't slamming unions, but I don't think that just because you label one work group (FA in this case - your label not mine) as unskilled that they don't deserve to earn what the market will bear. Just my opinion, but I think all labor groups ought to have the right to bargain for their compensation. Hopefully United will be around long enough for us all to look back on this and go "phew, I remember when United almost went down the tube" and their employee/owner groups will save the company by changing their perception of what the new market really is.
Peace!
KDA or DEATH
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"KDA, surely you don't think the market is operating in a vacuum? "...
No Sir. Absolutely not. The Market will determine , and NECESSARILY, adjust the wages as applicable to any one group within it's sphere.... Point being: WITHIN this Industry.
"And surely you don't think that Unions are not modifiers of the natural supply and demand curve of labor?"...
Well, I agree, to a point. They (Unions) ARE "modifiers", but not of the "natural curve'" as you politely put it....
Rather,(They) UNIONS are a semi-corrective action to the thievery of Managements that will prey upon the willing nature of "mission oriented" types that ALL Pilots are by nature...
Just MY Humble Opinion.
Submitted Respectfully, (This Date)
Douglas C. Niedermeyer
No Sir. Absolutely not. The Market will determine , and NECESSARILY, adjust the wages as applicable to any one group within it's sphere.... Point being: WITHIN this Industry.
"And surely you don't think that Unions are not modifiers of the natural supply and demand curve of labor?"...
Well, I agree, to a point. They (Unions) ARE "modifiers", but not of the "natural curve'" as you politely put it....
Rather,(They) UNIONS are a semi-corrective action to the thievery of Managements that will prey upon the willing nature of "mission oriented" types that ALL Pilots are by nature...
Just MY Humble Opinion.
Submitted Respectfully, (This Date)
Douglas C. Niedermeyer
Last edited:
HA25
Tokyo Tokyo!
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I wonder why it is that when the airlines had very little unionization of unskilled labor, they had no problem paying their pilots high wages (very high, when adjusted for inflation), and continue to operate..... while today they simply can't do it...
and, no, its not just deregulation... it's $50,000 F/A's and $40,000 bag throwers..
and, no, its not just deregulation... it's $50,000 F/A's and $40,000 bag throwers..
atpcliff
Well-known member
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Hi!
From another website:
Username: MD88Captain
A UAL pilot friend just attended a in house briefing at UAL saying that a shutdown by 1 MAR is a very real possiblity.
http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/1028419/
Cliff
GRB
:-(
From another website:
Username: MD88Captain
A UAL pilot friend just attended a in house briefing at UAL saying that a shutdown by 1 MAR is a very real possiblity.
http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/1028419/
Cliff
GRB
:-(
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