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Will United Survive?

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The problem with UAL is not 100% related to labor costs like you would like to think. Poor management is our problem. Cut labor to nothing and we still have a f'ed up airline. Our management is pathetic and labor costs are not the cause, just the result. We are not going to make pennies on the dollar while management is making millions on our backs. I agree it is a give or take world, but our management is the worst. They have driven us into an oblivion. We took a 29% pay cut and you think that helps? No. We could take a 95% pay cut and UAL is still not going to be healthy. Poor management. Simple as that.
 
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Bally.. Boy are you right. If it hadn't been for those lousy Unions, all pilots would be working 90 hrs a week for peanuts and loving every minute of it! I don't know where you have been for the past 50 years, but managment hasn't given out pay raises and benefits like medical, retirement, ect because they love the employees. Have unions been unrealistic at times? Probably so. But you don't make what you make today because you deserve it. Some where along the way a union pilot set a precedent for you. Better thank them for what you have today. How many pilots at UAL make 300K/yr? Out of 9000 pilots there, they have (or had) about 300 747-400 capts who are the highest paid, and they don't make that much. As for the flight attendents making a career out of their jobs, you can blame the unions who said you couldn't discriminate against married or older F/As. If it hadn't for equal rights, those women would have had to quit at 35 or when they got married. Can you believe the nerve of the unions to push for equal rights? And to pay a flight attendant who is a single mother of 2 with 30 years of senority 50K for working 18 days a month is outrageous! As I said, you are right. Unions have ruined everything!
 
Points well taken. I overgeneralized by saying that the labor unions at UAL are 100% to blame. They are surely not. Only about 80%. The person who thinks I am an idiot. Come out of your union cave and read something other than the montra from your union. I grew up in Detroit with both parents in the UAW. I am for unions. Yours however is joke.

With all due repsect, you need a larger pay cut than 29%. Having two kids does not "entitle" someone to pay greater than the job is worth. Difficult concept for many union members to understand.

The comments from Networ-King were outstanding. The responability of the pilot is without huge. The reality is that business must make a profit, and the sumation of the cost elements on the P & L statement need to be less than the revenues.

Nighty Night
 
Will United survive? I hope they do, if anything happened to United
plenty of people would be out of a job. TWA was in & out of bankruptcy
for years, so United should be around for a while.

There is plenty of blame to go around for the crisis at United, the blame is to
be shared equally.
It was the employees that scared the passengers away with the summer of 2000
work slow down and insisted on a very large pay raise.
It was the Union that forced the company give the employees a 29% pay raise.
It was managment that agreed to give the employees the 29% pay raise.
It was the employees who did not listen to management when warnings were given
as to the financial health of the company.
It was managment that did not speak loud enough and force the employees to listen.
It was the employees that fought against pay cuts, and perhaps was one of the
reasons that United did not receive the loan.
It was the employees that did not like United owning hotels and rental car companies
and broke up a very powerfull company.
It was management that did not try hard enough to stop the break up.

There is no one reason for this failure, and it took many years, perhaps
we can start a new topic, "What does United Airlines need to do to survive?"

Mike
 
Chicken Buzzards !

Never seen so many pilots standing around jerking off at someone elses suffering ! Time will tell. I was not around when TWA and Continental were in the dumper, was there this much bloodsucking going on then ?

Did I miss the jackass 101 class somewhere along the line ? I suppose that some of you would be happy to see 80,000 folks lose their jobs ? Just remember, it might be you some day !


Good luck !
 
The only thing that can save a company that far down financially is the following:


#1
Completely new management. Even if the old team could do it, they are not trusted much by the employees. That alone is FATAL.

#2
An attitude of emergency recovery among the employees.
Give 100% every day - even if you think management won't recognize or reward it. You wait for that.. you're doomed.

Basically, you have to love your job more than you hate management.
 
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I think one must be careful to distinguish between the so called "evils" of having a Union and the evils of greed. Is money evil? Money can be used for good or evil the same as a Union can be used for justifiable advancement in ones workplace, work rules, safety, etc or it can be used to strong arm the company to give up too much. I think it is imprortant to point out that without unions a pilots quality of life would be much lower and chances are we wouldn't have the level of safety we enjoy today.
 
Midnight Mike said:
There is plenty of blame to go around for the crisis at United, the blame is to
be shared equally.

Wasn't there a big deal a few years ago about the Employee/Owners of UAL? I thought the major Stockholders were/are the pilots and other employees. Ziggy1
 
Fuggedaboudit....

...Low-cost/low-schmost , This-that-and-the Otherthing, economic recovery, fuel prices, or perhaps the Mother Mary being sighted in a UAL tail logo...All speculation and guess work for Industry Klowns.

Read:

Aviation Week and Space Technology / Jan. 16th issue.

3-4 articles, spanning approx. 6 pages, all address UAL's "Marching Orders" as requires financial performance set forth by their Debtors-in-Possession.

Failure to meet these (impossible) caveats financially will lead to immediate liquidation for UAL.

The following seems obvious:

Realizing a HOPELESS situation... Management (after being turned down for cash by the ATSB) has BOUGHT TIME to CLEAN UP THEIR OWN HOUSE.... via Debtor-in-Possession Financing.

The 4 banks who put forth the 1.5 Bil to operate in Bankruptcy, and who hold the caveats to instantaneously drive UAL into Chapter 7 (liquidation) know two things:

1) Survive: WE win.

2) Fail: WE WIN BIG!!!

Sounds like a good bet to me....

Before you folks begin to flame me...Read the article so we can have an intelligent discussion, please.

I hope UAL makes it, but the second coming of "JC" Himself will probably happen sooner.

YKW
 
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Switch

Imagine if we let some of these bankers fly aircraft,

Well that is how scary it is when pilots talk about business.
 
Publishers,

Man I know funny .......

and **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**it you post was funny........



and trueeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Thursday February 13, 6:36 pm ET
By Neil Weinberg
UAL's Chapter 11 reorganization may just turn into an outright liquidation. Lenders, lessors and competitors are ready to pick up the pieces.


Even by the sickly standards of the American airline industry, UAL Corp. is a mess. After losing $3.2 billion last year, the nation's second-largest carrier is confronting the distinct possibility that it will not emerge from Chapter 11. It may instead be auctioned off in parts, the airplanes and landing slots carted off and the corporation liquidated in the manner of Braniff, Pan Am and Eastern.


Valiantly presiding over the Chicago-based parent of United Airlines is Glenn Tilton, a 54-year-old former oil executive who took the chief executive job in September. Perhaps radical thinking is just what is needed at this desperate juncture. But so far some of Tilton's moves have been--to put it politely--counterintuitive. To increase traffic he cut unrestricted walk-up fares by 40% in January out of United's two busiest hubs, Denver and Chicago O'Hare. That gained it some passengers but lowered the take from last-minute travel by an estimated $30 million a month.

Even without the discounts UAL (NYSE:UAL - News) was burning through money faster than jet fuel. In the fourth quarter it had an operating loss (earnings before depreciation, interest, taxes and airplane rent) of $478 million. Lenders, of course, have very limited patience with funding such operating losses, and if there is no prospect for reducing them, then the company would be worth more to creditors dead than alive. Starting in March, UAL's loan covenants require it to meet a schedule of reductions in operating losses and to break even by October.

If UAL can't meet the timetable, then debtor-in-possession lenders Bank One, J.P. Morgan Chase, Citigroup and CIT Group can begin confiscating planes, spare parts, routes and landing slots. "If things go badly, J.P. Morgan and Citigroup have a big incentive to seek liquidation and get their money back by calling in their collateral," says a lawyer following the bankruptcy. Publicly, United isn't conceding it's in any kind of death-spiral scenario. "The changes we're making should enable us to strengthen our operations and make us competitive," says United spokesman Jeffrey Green.

*Includes charges/provisions. **Includes UAL and US Airways obligations. Sources: Company and UAL bankruptcy filings; SpeedNews; Back Aviation Solutions. LAID LOW
United declared Chapter 11 bankruptcy in December with $21 billion in debt. A sampling of holders runs the gamut.

UNSECURED CREDITORS Amount($mil)

Debt held in trust $2,900

Indiana government authorities 162

Airbus 48


SECURED CREDITORS Amount($mil)

GE Capital $1,700

Boeing 1,300

Bank of New York 630*

Altria (Philip Morris) 536**

Pitney Bowes 100**

Walt Disney 83



If, that is, the unionized workers accept the changes. In January Tilton proposed to split off a big chunk of the carrier later this year and turn it into a low-cost, no frills airline, rumored to be named Starfish, that could compete with JetBlue (NasdaqNM:JBLU - News) and Southwest (NYSE:LUV - News). Pilots now making $225,000 (down from $316,000 last year) could be forced to trade down to jobs paying a maximum of $153,000.

Continental (NYSE:CAL - News) and US Airways (OTC BB:UAWGQ.OB - News) have gone the low-cost route before, without success. "If this is what they want to do, it's a nonstarter," stated Paul Whiteford, chairman of the 8,500-member United chapter of the Airline Pilots Association. It would, he added, "lead to the death of United Airlines." In other words a strike would push the airline out of business via the same route Eastern traversed.

By mid-March United must get its unions to agree to permanently hack off $2.4 billion in annual pay, or about 34% of their total. (Labor consumed half of UAL's $14.3 billion in revenue last year.) Mechanics and flight attendants have been publicly assailing Tilton for not offering a concrete proposal for them to consider. If no agreement is reached, United must petition the bankruptcy court to impose concessions.

To line up $1.5 billion in debtor-in-possession financing, United had to pay an unusually large 5% commission for a $300 million portion, plus a percentage point more in interest than WorldCom, Kmart or Adelphia paid. The postbankruptcy lenders are first in line during a liquidation, but even so they are taking a significant risk. If the workers won't come to work for reduced pay, then no lender is going to come out whole.

So far United has yet to buzz-cut any of its aircraft leasing deals. In fact, it just agreed to hold on to 154 of its 463 leased planes under the same old terms. But if the carrier starts offering, say, 25 cents on the dollar, big aircraft lessors like GE Capital (which owns 20 United planes) may just repossess and try to redeploy the jets to overseas carriers. When that market is saturated, the only thing to do with a commercial jet plane may be to park it in the desert in the Southwest, along with the 1,800 other jets already there.

Ready to feast on any leftovers are rivals like American, which would benefit from O'Hare's slots and routes. Continental lusts after United's Denver hub and its London Heathrow routes. Other hubs up for grabs would include Washington Dulles, San Francisco and Los Angeles. Delta, US Airways and Northwest would likely jump into the fray. With 20% of traffic already, and a strong tailwind at their backs, the discounters like Southwest, JetBlue and AirTran may be the biggest winners of all.
 
Very depressing. I wish UAL the best - time will show what happens.
 
Another indicator? I dont know. Many "analysts" have been known to be wrong.

Dow Jones Business News
Analysts' Lowest-Rated Stocks
Wednesday February 19, 12:24 pm ET


This is a weekly ranking by First Call of the Lowest-rated stocks, based on analyst comments contributed within the past month to First Call's database.
To be included on the list, a company must be rated by at least five analysts.

First Call Consensus Recommendation Scale

1 = Buy

2 = Buy/Hold

3 = Hold

4 = Hold/Sell

5 = Sell


Least Attractive Issues
---- ---------- ------
Latest # Analysts Previous
Consensus Covering Consensus

(UAL) 4.1 8 4.1
(GAP) 4.0 5 3.6
(OGE) 4.0 5 4.0
(MICT) 4.0 6 3.9
(MTON) 4.0 10 3.8
(RLRN) 3.9 7 3.7
(ECO) 3.9 8 3.6
(SIRI) 3.9 8 3.7
(KEM) 3.9 9 4.0
(PDQ) 3.8 5 3.6
(HUBB) 3.8 5 3.5
(RKT) 3.8 5 3.4
(EEX) 3.8 5 3.6
(INRG) 3.8 6 4.0
(CRY) 3.8 6 3.6
(DEG) 3.8 6 3.7
(TECO) 3.8 6 3.9
(GT) 3.8 8 3.9
(PMTR) 3.8 8 3.9
(NU) 3.8 9 3.6
(PHSY) 3.8 14 3.8
(CGO) 3.7 6 3.6
(NOVT) 3.7 7 3.4
(LVLT) 3.7 7 3.6
(SAPE) 3.7 9 3.6
(AVX) 3.7 11 3.8
(LDG) 3.6 5 3.5
(PCSA) 3.6 5 3.7
(TXCC) 3.6 5 3.7
(CHZ) 3.6 5 3.4
(TCR) 3.6 5 3.4
(MSW) 3.6 5 3.5
(QGENF) 3.6 9 3.4
(AGE) 3.6 9 3.4
(APS) 3.6 9 3.5
(DJ) 3.6 10 3.8
(ADVS) 3.6 10 3.4
(BRW) 3.6 12 3.5
(DYN) 3.6 14 3.7
(TE) 3.6 16 3.5
(SCH) 3.6 17 3.5
(TCN) 3.5 6 3.7
(SMT) 3.5 6 3.2
(CRGN) 3.5 6 3.0
(CR) 3.5 6 3.2
(DES) 3.5 6 3.4
(ETS) 3.5 6 4.0
(CEL) 3.5 6 3.1
(ACNAF) 3.5 8 3.3
(ABF) 3.5 10 3.4
(MNY) 3.5 10 3.6
(GLK) 3.5 11 3.6
(RBAK) 3.5 14 3.4
(ELN) 3.5 14 3.5
(DV) 3.5 16 3.4
(MXT) 3.5 17 3.6
(ITWO) 3.5 31 3.6
(WPL) 3.4 5 3.6
 
Bally said:
I grew up in Detroit with both parents in the UAW. I am for unions.

So a Flight Attendant should not make 50K a year but a Autoworker who quit school in the 10th grade should make 75K. The UAW is the reason we pay 30K+ for new cars while they shower their masses of uneducated workers with compensation not seen by many laborers in this country. I'm pro-union, but the UAW is the worst example of people being overpaid for their skills. I am sure many pilots would love to have the layoff pay that UAW workers enjoy, almost 100% of pay while sitting at home. All that compensation will be included in the price of your fancy new car.
 

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