Will SWA and AT truly merge?

[GhettoBeechjet]

Timeout:


Lots of people here that are taking themselves far too seriously. All that had been established here over and over again is that:


1. The Airtran guys feel like relative seniority is the only fair and equitable solution. They are sure that is what they will be awarded in arbitration.

2. The SWA guys feel that relative seniority would be a windfall for the Airtran guys given the age and contractual differances between the companys. They are sure an arbitrator will not rule this way.

3. The Airtran guys don't feel that the contractual gains will be a factor in the arbitration and the SWA guys disagree.

Reality check:

Nothing is going to be solved on this forum. No one is going to change anyones mind.

This thing will get resolved and there is a good chance it will be in arbitration. There are 100s of ways that an arbitrator could look at this and for anyone who is not an attorney that specializes in airline RLA airline seniority list mergers in a post Bond McCaskill environment to predict an outcome is just silly.

That being said whatever the outcome of the SLI is the worst thing we can do long term for our collective carriers is to have this thing turn out like USAir/AWA. Soon we will all have to live in the same house and it will be far better if we choose to get along. Nothing is being solved here. The only thing thats happening is that the animosity is being created and the rhetoric keeps getting louder. Is this what we really want to create?

Ghetto

 

[Ty Webb]

Ty, you better hope it goes a little better for SWA pilots than your "expert opinion" or it will go to a "Morris solution", go look that up.

Sorry, I'm done with debating SLI. See my previous post.

And Ty, you still haven't answered your premise that the SWAPA CBA will be changed and how, so what say you?

It's not my premise. Call your SWAPA Rep and have them explain it to you, or simply review your CBA with an eye toward modifications that would have to be made in regards to inevitable or likely changes from the pending merger.

It's not a whole new CBA, but several sections will require modification.

 

[Flyarcticcat]

I get the bitterness. I get the arrogance. I get the fear. Who wouldn't want their cake and eat it too.

Career expectations for a pilot starts with DOH. Then you go to pay, benefits, seniority, and other QOL issues (vacation, schedule, work rules, etc)

You use these elements to determine "fair and equitable". The pay for an AT captain is similar to an SWA fo. SWA benefits are better to much better than AT. Other QOL issues are much, much better than AT. The gains for the AT guys up to this point are more than substantial. They are life changing. So what is equitable for the SWA pilots.
The only issue left is seniority.

There must be balance in the arbitrators eyes. And the AT pilots have nothing to bring as an enhancement to the table.

I read the fear in some of the AT pilots on this board. You need not be fearful of losing relative seniority. You are enormously better off being purchased by SWA.

Very well said.

There is nothing stopping an arbitrator from determining that fair and equitable equals a staple of Airtran pilots under SWA pilots. As stated above QOL, Pay and stability would be increased and each Airtran pilot would still have the same number of pilots currently below them as they do now. That is the gamble of going to Arbitration.

 

[Lear70]

Very well said.

There is nothing stopping an arbitrator from determining that fair and equitable equals a staple of Airtran pilots under SWA pilots. As stated above QOL, Pay and stability would be increased and each Airtran pilot would still have the same number of pilots currently below them as they do now. That is the gamble of going to Arbitration.

Like I said, the ultimate windfall for AirTran would be PURE relative seniority, the pilots hired at Southwest before AirTran even existed notwithstanding. That would mean our number 1 guy slotting right behind your number 1 guy and so on in a relative position pairing by percentile, even though that would disregard 20+ years of additional longevity. That would be a windfall.

The ultimate windfall for Southwest would be any sort of staple of a large percentage of our seniority list under yours as was mentioned earlier.

Neither one is going to happen.

That's not arrogance. That's not anger. Just stating a very simple fact. Both of those are the very definition of "windfall" and neither one is realistically going to occur. If you think it is, well, no amount of FI debate is going to convince you and I would suggest you contact your reps and get in touch with more realistic expectations.

Something fair is in the middle.

 

[funnyman12]

I find the amount of SWA guys insisting on a staple as being fair is proof of the fear they have. Im 25% up the Airtran sen list. If this merger never happens and there is a terrorist attack next year, i would most likely keep my job. Let's imagine the worst case scenario and AT furloughed 20%. I would keep my job. If i was stapled to the combined list and Sea furloughed 5% for their first time id be on the street. If they furloughed 10% half of airtran would be on the street. You could pay $500/hr and it wouldn't matter. Sounds like TWA/AA. Oh wait this law with the whole" fair and equitable" was created because of the staple, and AT is not in BK and healthy. Sorry SWA staple fans, ain't gonna happen.

 

[GuppyWN]

Ty,

I've found my happy place too since there isn't a darn thing I can do about it. Welcome back!

Without debating SLI's with you can I ask you a serious, honest question?

If Airtran bought Virgin America what would you consider "fair and equitable?"

I'm not trying to box you in, I"m just curious what your thoughts are?

Gup

 

[roughneck]

Does Virgin have guys on furlough? Serious question. Not sure if Virgin is a fair example to compare with.

 

[GuppyWN]

Virgin is hiring.

Gup

 

[Dash Power]

I agree with you 100% Lear 70.

The given windfall, without any control, are the extreme gains your airline's pilots will be experiencing when we operate like one company. Many of your pilots feel that we are giving up nothing for your gains. Over all the years I can't even begin to list all the sacrifice the pilots of Southwest have given to earn the contract you will soon celebrate. Now we can all agree how disrespectful that attitude appears.

I don't want to read this board and think I don't want anything to do with Airtran pilots. Acknowledging that relative seniority is as unfair as a complete staple is more of a good place to start in discussing our two companies working together.

 

[funnyman12]

Hello...staple will never happen. TWA/AA was the reason for the whole "fair and equitable" thingy. You silly forum guys can convince yourself all day that a staple is fair, but it aint gonna happen kiddies. I agree pure relative seniority ain't happen either. I think in the end we will find a fair middle ground and continue being successful, but we will be one airline.

 

[Richard Gozinya]

Call your SWAPA Rep and have them explain it to you

Gup is my rep, he speaks for me!

 

[kwick]

Ty,

I've found my happy place too since there isn't a darn thing I can do about it. Welcome back!

Without debating SLI's with you can I ask you a serious, honest question?

If Airtran bought Virgin America what would you consider "fair and equitable?"

I'm not trying to box you in, I"m just curious what your thoughts are?

Gup

Date of Hire, with fences to protect seat position and domicile.

I don't think it's fair to steal someone else's seat position
because of a merger or acquisition.

 

[GuppyWN]

How big of a fence? 1 year? 5 years? 15 years?

Gup

 

[Bob Dylan]

Logically speaking, the list will likely be merged via a straight-up staple, as it should be. An arbitrator will likely realize that if a straight-up staple were voted on, it would pass by a large margin.

Stapling the AirTran pilots is the fairest thing in the world for everybody. Only a few hundred AT captains will be disappointed, as opposed to thousands disappointed that could literally destroy the company.

Staple AT and be done with it and continue to grow a great airline!

 

[Lear70]

Logically speaking, the list will likely be merged via a straight-up staple, as it should be. An arbitrator will likely realize that if a straight-up staple were voted on, it would pass by a large margin.

Stapling the AirTran pilots is the fairest thing in the world for everybody. Only a few hundred AT captains will be disappointed, as opposed to thousands disappointed that could literally destroy the company.

Staple AT and be done with it and continue to grow a great airline!

See, now THAT'S what straight-up flame bait looks like...

At least I got a good laugh out of it.

Next...

 

[Bob Dylan]

See, now THAT'S what straight-up flame bait looks like...

At least I got a good laugh out of it.

Next...

This from an AirTran captain I bet.

Face it, your company was bought! How you think you should be senior to any SWA pilot is beyond arrogant.

Everybody except you AT captains would be thrilled with a staple to SWA. I think you even admitted that at one time, right. Talk about being a hypocrite.

A staple would pass a vote easily and the arbitrator will recognize that.

 

[doh]

Bobbie, if you want to make a bet, I'm in for $1,000 that says you don't get a straight up staple!

 

[Lear70]

This from an AirTran captain I bet.

Face it, your company was bought! How you think you should be senior to any SWA pilot is beyond arrogant.

Everybody except you AT captains would be thrilled with a staple to SWA. I think you even admitted that at one time, right. Talk about being a hypocrite.

A staple would pass a vote easily and the arbitrator will recognize that.

Arrogance? Really? Pot, meet kettle.

As far as the staple... Keep dreaming, my friend... keep dreaming...

 

[ivauir]

I'm not "bitterly attacking" anyone, even if they are operating way outside of the realm of likely outcomes, as the previous poster was. A poster, btw, who has just joined flightinfo and this was his first post (hmmm- what a coincidence).

Whatever gets you through the night.

I don't think there is anything to be gained here. All of your points have long since been refuted, some by people much more objective than you or I.

Ty,

Again, this is exactly what I am talking about. This is typical of your style and it really rubs me raw. You are not an authority on B/M or AGM. You haven't "long since refuted" ANY of these points. All you have done is post your opinion as fact. No, strike that, the only thing I read from you is name calling diatribes where you make juvenile attempt at positioning. This isn't anything like DAL/NW and you know it. Career expectations is a HUGE part of these proceedings and these pilot groups are worlds apart. You know that too, but you pretend that you don't.

It all amounts to a transparent attempt at positioning which serves no purpose except to make your future coworkers angry.

I hope your team has better knowledge and balance then you exhibit here or this is going to get ugly.


Welcome to the party. Play nice.

 

[En Mort Main]

I think the SWA guys/gals on here are not understanding the way arbitration works. The AT guys are trying to explain it but it seems to fall on deaf ears.
The arbitrator is not going to look at what the pilot groups recieve from the third party (i.e. Company) That does not matter when it comes to senority. I have a feeling that this explanation will fall on deaf ears but it is worth trying again.
Seniority will be decided on where are you now and where can you expect to be at retirement. Pay, holidays, QOL issues will not be factored into the formulation of this list.
I understand how SWA pilots feel this is unfair towards them....but it is not. The SWA pilots are not losing anything by SWA (the company) paying other pilots (AT) pilots the same pay as they now recieve. SWA pilots do not lose anything but having SWA (The Company) extend current negotiated work rules to AT.
SO all these claims that AT are collecting a "Windfall" at the Exspence of SWA pilots is nonsense. After the sli no one is going to come up to a SWA pilot and demand anything from them.
Now if SWA got what it wants and stapled AT, SWA PILOTS mostly FO's will recieve a WINDFALL in a true sense. They will be recieveing CA slots at the exspense of current AT CA's.. After the SLI was awarded someone WOULD come and demand the AT CA to return to being an FO.

I know from the rhetoric already exspoused on this thread that SWA pilots will glaze over this explanation and still demand concessions from the AT pilots unjustly believing that himself the swa pilot gave the AT pilots all this money and QOL issues, when in fact the SWA pilots are not giving anything to the AT pilots. SWA the company is who is giving the pay and benefits.

So the belief that AT pilots are recieveing a windfall at the exspense of the SWA pilot group is nonsense.
If the voices on this board are a representation of what the pilot groups truly believe why even waste the time of having a nagotiating commitee and go straight to arbitration?

EN MORT MAIN

p.s. I personally believe if AT pilots allow anything besides relative seniority they will be sailing themselves short.