Will "Song" succeed?

[ifly4food]

I vote no. Though this is merely my opinion, I form it through statements like this:

"It’s our goal to make flying the way it used to be – fun, exciting, interesting or simply relaxing – whatever the customer is looking for that day," said John Selvaggio, president of Song and a 30-year veteran of the airline industry. "We’re introducing choices back into the experience. And, we’re going to ask customers to vote products and service on or off the aircraft. So, when we say ‘the choice is truly yours,’ we mean it."

The problem with the major airlines, Delta in particular, is that they try to be "everything to everybody".
The the fluff in the Delta.com press release about customer choice shows that they still don't get it.
Customers want cheap seats to places they want to go. They don't need a "digital flying experience" nor a "harmonious expression of individuality". Until the airlines realize they're selling seats and not ideals, they're doomed.

If they really wanted to succeed at this they should have copied AirTran.

What do you all think?

 

[generaltso]

I think they are just trying to combine what makes all the low fare carriers successful - a little bit of Southwest, Jetblue, and airtran all wrapped in to one really gay sounding airline.

"Song's lime-green planes will be equipped with in-flight live satellite television that was pioneered by JetBlue, as well as personal touch-screen monitors, pay-per-view, an MP3 audio library and in-seat Internet connections"

I found it odd that a low fare airline would offer this stuff... this stuff is great in my opinion. If the fares were the same, I would take an airline that offers internet connections.

I say good luck to Delta. The odds are stacked against them, big time. No major has ever really been successful in starting a low fare airline within it self.

 

[FlyingSig]

Very mixed emotions on the whole thing but I will say this... I'm happy DAL managment is trying to generate new forms of revenue instead of trying to cut their way to profitability. Actions like that tell me they just might "get it".



editon a sidenote.... all the reporters who have been writing that Delta Express was a failure don't really "get it" either. At the time, DalEx was used to free up high yield seats from the ATL market that were normally taken by leisure travelers. While the DalEx "routes" didn't generate much profit, the end result helped DAL set records in profitability for several years. Today's market doesn't generate many high yield seats thus there is no need for the DalEx product/business plan..... The new "plan" is not to free up seats but to offer a unique product. We'll see if it works...

Again, the name is stupid, the colors are ugly, but kudos to those that recognize the problem is revenue and not costs.

 

[bobbysamd]

Song Sung Blue

Apologies to Neil Diamond.

I'd say "no," based on previous history, but it won't surprise me in the least to see at least a couple of the household-name majors try to remake themselves into LCCs. I thought I saw where United will try.

 

[surplus1]

Aside from the less than imaginative name, the real "problem" with this "LCC" will be realized when Delta follows UAL's announced intention to operate it's LCC with a different contract and different compensation package for pilots.

UAL can "go public" with its true intent courtesy of bankruptcy protection. If they really do it, Delta will ultimately be forced to follow suit. In the longer term we will all come to realize that there is nothing "good" about this for Delta's pilots. The new "subsidiary" will ultimately be used to destroy their PWA.

It may well succeed in generating revenue for the Company, but it will ultimately reduce "revenue" for pilot employees as well as others. It's only a matter of time. Not a pretty prospect.

 

[Bluestreak]

Ah,er,umm,Yeah ! Just like Continental Lite™ ("Peanuts Fares !"-remember the commercials with the peanut farmer ?) Shuttle By United™,MetroJet™.....Did anybody see where some U employees complained to Ford because of all the parked 'MaterJets seen in the background of a Ford truck commercial ? Anyway,any profits realized by this entity will be quickly swallowed up by the money-losing majority of the company,in the same manner that all the U Express companies turn a profit,but the parent company still hemmorhages (sp?) red ink.Now,if the entire DAL operation went this way except for the trans-Atlantic stuff,you might have something.One small,profitable operation will not save the entire company.

 

[Indapool]

so they are going to pay the crews mainline wages AND spend $30 million per A\C. Yup, that's going to work out really well

 

[601Pilot]

Inflight entertainment

Why doesn't Delta put this new inflight entertainment in
their "full-fare" aircraft and used stripped down 757s for the
LCC?

Crazy!

 

[abatista]

I feel that Song can make it. But on the other hand it could replace Delta. I feel a change is on the way for all airlines. The all have to do something different. The Jetblue's, SouthWest and even AirTran have made money.

Times are changing. The only thing that will put a stop to this would be if people start flying more from GA airports in either Air Taxi's or Fractionals. I feel this is where the future is at.

 

[greg20]

601 Pilot said:

"Why doesn't Delta put this new inflight entertainment in
their "full-fare" aircraft and used stripped down 757s for the
LCC?

Crazy!"


The reason is simple. Song was created at least partially to compete with B6 in the NE. I say "at least partially" because it may have nationwide service as its long-term goal. Anyway, in order to be competitive with IFE features, Delta had to 'one-up' what B6 offers in the same markets. JetBlue does fly a few transcons, but in general Delta's mainline IFE (however old and limited) rivals that of the other majors in most markets.

 

[100LL... Again!]

Know what REALLY makes a company succeed?

#1 An employee group that sees the competition as COMPETITION.

#2 Management that rewards employees for their actions based on the same idea.

If either of these is less than 100%, the company is less than 100%.

Nothing will ever come of waiting for the 'other side' to do the right thing.

Once a corporate culture is firmly in place, it is nearly impossible to change. Re-setting the corporate culture is the greatest hope of ANY new company.

I think Song will be sung by the fat lady.

------------------------------------------------------------
A house divided against itself cannot stand.
- Quote by Abraham Lincoln (from Proverbs?)

 

[csmith]

Aside from the less than imaginative name, the real "problem" with this "LCC" will be realized when Delta follows UAL's announced intention to operate it's LCC with a different contract and different compensation package for pilots.

UAL can "go public" with its true intent courtesy of bankruptcy protection. If they really do it, Delta will ultimately be forced to follow suit. In the longer term we will all come to realize that there is nothing "good" about this for Delta's pilots. The new "subsidiary" will ultimately be used to destroy their PWA.

It may well succeed in generating revenue for the Company, but it will ultimately reduce "revenue" for pilot employees as well as others. It's only a matter of time. Not a pretty prospect.

In order to do so, the company will have to itself be in ch 11. If indeed the company goes into ch 11. I would imagine that the Delta pilot's will be gutted right after the Comair and ASA pilot's contract. Nice of you to be concerned, however.

 

[surplus1]

In order to do so, the company will have to itself be in ch 11. If indeed the company goes into ch 11. I would imagine that the Delta pilot's will be gutted right after the Comair and ASA pilot's contract. Nice of you to be concerned, however.

I admire your confidence and your stance, but I doubt that Delta will need to consider Chapter 11 in order to impose wage concessions on Delta pilots or for that matter, CMR or ASA.

If the economy turns around you may be able to escape this but it appears unlikely. UAL has already taken a 29% cut to which the pilots have "agreed". The Company is demanding more as is USAir Group. If they don't go Chapter 7, your turn is coming. American is also under intense pressure. Delta will attempt to abide by your contract and the contracts of its other subsidiaries for as long as it can but, realistically, we cannot expect the Company to provide a compensation package that exceeds the competition by 30% or more indefinitely, while it continues to lose money.

I don't want these things to happen to you or anyone else, including my own group. but I'm not an Ostrich. Your contract is likely to come under more pressure sooner than ours, simply because you are more "expensive", there are more of you, and you are less productive by far, but anyone who thinks we (regionals) are exempt is naive. If the economic pressures continue or increase we will all suffer ultimately. In my opinion, it is not a question of "if" but of when.

Delta's pension plan is a likely target. The non-contract employees have already experienced the change. It is coming to you as well, so expect it. It will not take Chapter 11, just renegotiation of the agreement. Your A-plan (company wide) is currently more under funded than any other in the industry. Your amendable date just isn't that far away. If you don't experience the changes before, you will experience them then.

It may be a nice idea to create an LCC and the extra seats in a 199-configured 757 may make the airplane competitive. That presumes, of course, that you can fill those seats. That's left to be seen, so don't count the chickens before they hatch. Do remember --- there is nothing "low cost" about the Delta pilot's compensation package.

Like us, you are not exempt. If you believe you are, it's just wishful thinking. Nonetheless, I hope your wishes (in this regard) come true and everyone can live happily ever after. However, "Full pay to the last day" may well hasten the last day, as it has elsewhere.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

However, "Full pay to the last day" may well hasten the last day, as it has elsewhere.

Like where?

 

[csmith]

I admire your confidence and your stance, but I doubt that Delta will need to consider Chapter 11 in order to impose wage concessions on Delta pilots or for that matter, CMR or ASA.

If the economy turns around you may be able to escape this but it appears unlikely. UAL has already taken a 29% cut to which the pilots have "agreed". The Company is demanding more as is USAir Group. If they don't go Chapter 7, your turn is coming. American is also under intense pressure. Delta will attempt to abide by your contract and the contracts of its other subsidiaries for as long as it can but, realistically, we cannot expect the Company to provide a compensation package that exceeds the competition by 30% or more indefinitely, while it continues to lose money.

I don't want these things to happen to you or anyone else, including my own group. but I'm not an Ostrich. Your contract is likely to come under more pressure sooner than ours, simply because you are more "expensive", there are more of you, and you are less productive by far, but anyone who thinks we (regionals) are exempt is naive. If the economic pressures continue or increase we will all suffer ultimately. In my opinion, it is not a question of "if" but of when.

Delta's pension plan is a likely target. The non-contract employees have already experienced the change. It is coming to you as well, so expect it. It will not take Chapter 11, just renegotiation of the agreement. Your A-plan (company wide) is currently more under funded than any other in the industry. Your amendable date just isn't that far away. If you don't experience the changes before, you will experience them then.

It may be a nice idea to create an LCC and the extra seats in a 199-configured 757 may make the airplane competitive. That presumes, of course, that you can fill those seats. That's left to be seen, so don't count the chickens before they hatch. Do remember --- there is nothing "low cost" about the Delta pilot's compensation package.

Like us, you are not exempt. If you believe you are, it's just wishful thinking. Nonetheless, I hope your wishes (in this regard) come true and everyone can live happily ever after. However, "Full pay to the last day" may well hasten the last day, as it has elsewhere.

To answer the question, yes, Song will "make it". I love the comparisons to Delta Express. Fact is that Delta Express is making a profit. Although it has made a profit, it wasn't set up to make a profit, but to free up more expensive mainline seats into and out of MCO when all of those people were traveling. Now we put the same cost structure, in fact less because of the other employees, onto a 199 seat jet and the costs are lowered dramatically. I have no doubt that they will flock, as they have flocked to a no frills, cramped, no food, 737-200 for almost 7 years.

As far as the rest, this is not the thread for it. You seem to be good at getting off topic and getting your little digs in at the Delta pilots. Suffice to say that you really have little knowledge of the Delta pilot situation, the "full pay to the last day situation", and the retirement situation. How could you? You have no self-interest in any of them? All you have is your little jabs. Enjoy them.

C

 

[pilotyip]

Pilolts support

Will the Delta pilot's come out of the cockpit and help clean the cabin and load bags to help make a quick turn possible? Or will the airline pilot's "It's not my job prevail? If they do then this will become a true revolution. I know pilots at the LLC's have stepped up to the plate in these very situations

 

[surplus1]

As far as the rest, this is not the thread for it. You seem to be good at getting off topic and getting your little digs in at the Delta pilots. Suffice to say that you really have little knowledge of the Delta pilot situation, the "full pay to the last day situation", and the retirement situation. How could you? You have no self-interest in any of them? All you have is your little jabs. Enjoy them.

C

Boy you really have a chip on your shoulder. If you'd set it down for a couple of hours you might realize that "digging" the Delta pilots or any other pilots is of no real interest to me. The discussion is about Song and the pros and cons that this "LCC" may produce, not Delta pilots. As a group you just happen to be in the first venture, i.e.. the guinea pigs in the experiment. That's not my doing and I don't applaud the idea.

The same concepts will apply, with minor variations, wherever a "new LCC subsidiary" is created. Witness United's "plan". The only real difference appears to be that they, thanks to bankruptcy protection, are up front with the compensation changes that this type of carrier will ultimately generate. I don't think it will be beneficial to pilot compensation packages in the long term. Not at Delta and not anywhere else.

It is in your interest and our interest that the Company succeed in this venture. I simply fear that they will ultimately do so at the expense of the pilot's compensation packages. Yours first and eventually mine. If you do not share that viewand you feel you can maintain the status quo, then I hope you are right and I am wrong.

 

[surplus1]

Like where?

I think that "slogan" originates with USAirways, lives at UAL and appears to be prevalent in pilot thinking at AA and DAL. It hasn't worked at the former two and I don't think it will work at the remaining two. Something has to give. Right now, the corporations hold the winning hand re labor and are backed by the government.

In the current scenario, which I don't see as changing (in our favor) in the near term, perhaps a different strategy by labor could produce greater benefits in the long term. A bit of rowing in the same direction just might keep the rest of us from going over the falls, like some of us already have.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Surplus,

Both U and UAL have already given massive concessions, DAL and AMR have in the past. Despite your assertion, I can think of no examples where ALPA pilots have not accepted concessions to avoid that "last day." Sometimes it has worked, sometimes it has simply led to more price wars, one reason why ALPA is now very careful about giving up hard won victories.

As far as rowing in the same direction, I think that your mec and the rjdc effectively eliminated any chance of that ever happening. I know you think the fault is ours. We think the fault is yours. And here we stand.

P.S.
Our scope clause (the section that your group is trying to eliminate) is the ONLY thing that is keeping our pilots in the cockpit of Song. You are concerned about what Song could mean in the future. I am concerned as well. However, if your group had its way, mgt would have taken our 757's and given them to cheaper labor (maybe your pilots). Once again, we are simply trying to protect our jobs. So far, in this instance, it has worked, despite all those on this board who parrot the line that scope doesn't work.

 

[skydiverdriver]

I personally hope that Song does well.

 

[csmith]

Boy you really have a chip on your shoulder. If you'd set it down for a couple of hours you might realize that "digging" the Delta pilots or any other pilots is of no real interest to me.

No chip, just the prowess of observation, and your statement above proves that you are either lying, or just don't remember your posts--another log on the fire for the pro age-60 debate. If the thread isn't about Delta pilots, you shouldn't bring it up. Of course, I'm sure the "moderator" won't put the hammer down on one of his buddies.

C

 

[ifly4food]

No chip, just the prowess of observation, and your statement above proves that you are either lying, or just don't remember your posts--another log on the fire for the pro age-60 debate. If the thread isn't about Delta pilots, you shouldn't bring it up.

Of course, I'm sure the "moderator" won't put the hammer down on one of his buddies.

C

The "moderator" won't put the hammer down on one of his buddies?

cssmith, I resent your assertion. I'm putting the hammer down on you. If you don't like what you see here, feel free to find a new place to rant. You have a lot of nerve to come on here and insult one of your hosts.

I did not take sides with surplus1's assertions on this thread. I also must say that he is not my "buddy", in fact I've never met him. I think he and I agree on some basic things but disagree on a lot too. Either way, you clearly show that you DO have a chip on your shoulder by lumping all Connection pilots into the same mainline hating group, and by insulting me. I guess it's guilt by association, right?
I work for ASA. We agreed to hire your furloughees with preference. My problem is with ALPA's policies, not you. I don't support a lawsuit.

This thread has turned away from my original post, and I'd like to see it turn away from the "jabs" both sides are giving and back to the original question. That's directed to everyone, including surplus and cssmith.

 

[csmith]

The "moderator" won't put the hammer down on one of his buddies?

cssmith, I resent your assertion. I'm putting the hammer down on you. If you don't like what you see here, feel free to find a new place to rant. You have a lot of nerve to come on here and insult one of your hosts.

I did not take sides with surplus1's assertions on this thread. I also must say that he is not my "buddy", in fact I've never met him. I think he and I agree on some basic things but disagree on a lot too. Either way, you clearly show that you DO have a chip on your shoulder by lumping all Connection pilots into the same mainline hating group, and by insulting me. I guess it's guilt by association, right?
I work for ASA. We agreed to hire your furloughees with preference. My problem is with ALPA's policies, not you. I don't support a lawsuit.

This thread has turned away from my original post, and I'd like to see it turn away from the "jabs" both sides are giving and back to the original question. That's directed to everyone, including surplus and cssmith.

This was my point in the first place. This thread straying from the original topic. Surplus initiated it. Nobody stops it. I'm sorry you are so offended by my point out the obvious. It seems to happen in every thread which gets anywhere near Delta. I know you have it in you because I've seen you do it with other threads, yet you seem to let this individual spout wherever and whenever, hence the "buddy" term. I am not ranting, nor have a chip. Just looking for "equal" moderating, or perhaps it's only "fair" moderating--<weak attempt at ALPA DFR humor>.

 

[ifly4food]

This was my point in the first place. This thread straying from the original topic. Surplus initiated it. Nobody stops it. I'm sorry you are so offended by my point out the obvious. It seems to happen in every thread which gets anywhere near Delta. I know you have it in you because I've seen you do it with other threads, yet you seem to let this individual spout wherever and whenever, hence the "buddy" term. I am not ranting, nor have a chip. Just looking for "equal" moderating, or perhaps it's only "fair" moderating--<weak attempt at ALPA DFR humor>.

I did get a chuckle out of your "DFR humor"

You know my position because I just told you what it is.

If it makes you feel any better, while I occasionaly speak up on a Delta topic, I've learned not to moderate them because invariably, someone on one side or another will start screaming "censorship" and create an even bigger mess. I used to close them or erase them as soon as it went to the old RJDC rhetoric, but not anymore.
So if that doesn't meet your deffinition of "fair" moderating, then I can't help you. I have found it's most fair to practice no moderating on this issue. My previous statement was an expression of my disappointment with your crack about my being unfair, which I didn't appreciate. I accept your apology.

Now, can we please get back to a discussion of "Song" relevant to the original post?

 

[Timebuilder]

I like Bobby's mention of Song Sung Blue.

Do you remember the old Delta commercial with the singing pilots and FA's? They could do a similar commercial for Song, indicating that the pilots will be paid less than other "Delta" pilots.

"Most of us weren't working
were tired of all this jerking
so now.......... we're working.................... for a Song....."

(big finish, pull back to shot of the airplane, FA's in a chorus line on the wing)

 

[HoursHore]

People want their Airline to
1. take off on time
2. take off on time
3. not be treated like crap.

If song can do that operating outta LGA in addition to the other places, they'll do well. thats a big if.