Will "Song" succeed?

[100LL... Again!]

Know what REALLY makes a company succeed?

#1 An employee group that sees the competition as COMPETITION.

#2 Management that rewards employees for their actions based on the same idea.

If either of these is less than 100%, the company is less than 100%.

Nothing will ever come of waiting for the 'other side' to do the right thing.

Once a corporate culture is firmly in place, it is nearly impossible to change. Re-setting the corporate culture is the greatest hope of ANY new company.

I think Song will be sung by the fat lady.

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A house divided against itself cannot stand.
- Quote by Abraham Lincoln (from Proverbs?)

 

[csmith]

Aside from the less than imaginative name, the real "problem" with this "LCC" will be realized when Delta follows UAL's announced intention to operate it's LCC with a different contract and different compensation package for pilots.

UAL can "go public" with its true intent courtesy of bankruptcy protection. If they really do it, Delta will ultimately be forced to follow suit. In the longer term we will all come to realize that there is nothing "good" about this for Delta's pilots. The new "subsidiary" will ultimately be used to destroy their PWA.

It may well succeed in generating revenue for the Company, but it will ultimately reduce "revenue" for pilot employees as well as others. It's only a matter of time. Not a pretty prospect.

In order to do so, the company will have to itself be in ch 11. If indeed the company goes into ch 11. I would imagine that the Delta pilot's will be gutted right after the Comair and ASA pilot's contract. Nice of you to be concerned, however.

 

[surplus1]

In order to do so, the company will have to itself be in ch 11. If indeed the company goes into ch 11. I would imagine that the Delta pilot's will be gutted right after the Comair and ASA pilot's contract. Nice of you to be concerned, however.

I admire your confidence and your stance, but I doubt that Delta will need to consider Chapter 11 in order to impose wage concessions on Delta pilots or for that matter, CMR or ASA.

If the economy turns around you may be able to escape this but it appears unlikely. UAL has already taken a 29% cut to which the pilots have "agreed". The Company is demanding more as is USAir Group. If they don't go Chapter 7, your turn is coming. American is also under intense pressure. Delta will attempt to abide by your contract and the contracts of its other subsidiaries for as long as it can but, realistically, we cannot expect the Company to provide a compensation package that exceeds the competition by 30% or more indefinitely, while it continues to lose money.

I don't want these things to happen to you or anyone else, including my own group. but I'm not an Ostrich. Your contract is likely to come under more pressure sooner than ours, simply because you are more "expensive", there are more of you, and you are less productive by far, but anyone who thinks we (regionals) are exempt is naive. If the economic pressures continue or increase we will all suffer ultimately. In my opinion, it is not a question of "if" but of when.

Delta's pension plan is a likely target. The non-contract employees have already experienced the change. It is coming to you as well, so expect it. It will not take Chapter 11, just renegotiation of the agreement. Your A-plan (company wide) is currently more under funded than any other in the industry. Your amendable date just isn't that far away. If you don't experience the changes before, you will experience them then.

It may be a nice idea to create an LCC and the extra seats in a 199-configured 757 may make the airplane competitive. That presumes, of course, that you can fill those seats. That's left to be seen, so don't count the chickens before they hatch. Do remember --- there is nothing "low cost" about the Delta pilot's compensation package.

Like us, you are not exempt. If you believe you are, it's just wishful thinking. Nonetheless, I hope your wishes (in this regard) come true and everyone can live happily ever after. However, "Full pay to the last day" may well hasten the last day, as it has elsewhere.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

However, "Full pay to the last day" may well hasten the last day, as it has elsewhere.

Like where?

 

[csmith]

I admire your confidence and your stance, but I doubt that Delta will need to consider Chapter 11 in order to impose wage concessions on Delta pilots or for that matter, CMR or ASA.

If the economy turns around you may be able to escape this but it appears unlikely. UAL has already taken a 29% cut to which the pilots have "agreed". The Company is demanding more as is USAir Group. If they don't go Chapter 7, your turn is coming. American is also under intense pressure. Delta will attempt to abide by your contract and the contracts of its other subsidiaries for as long as it can but, realistically, we cannot expect the Company to provide a compensation package that exceeds the competition by 30% or more indefinitely, while it continues to lose money.

I don't want these things to happen to you or anyone else, including my own group. but I'm not an Ostrich. Your contract is likely to come under more pressure sooner than ours, simply because you are more "expensive", there are more of you, and you are less productive by far, but anyone who thinks we (regionals) are exempt is naive. If the economic pressures continue or increase we will all suffer ultimately. In my opinion, it is not a question of "if" but of when.

Delta's pension plan is a likely target. The non-contract employees have already experienced the change. It is coming to you as well, so expect it. It will not take Chapter 11, just renegotiation of the agreement. Your A-plan (company wide) is currently more under funded than any other in the industry. Your amendable date just isn't that far away. If you don't experience the changes before, you will experience them then.

It may be a nice idea to create an LCC and the extra seats in a 199-configured 757 may make the airplane competitive. That presumes, of course, that you can fill those seats. That's left to be seen, so don't count the chickens before they hatch. Do remember --- there is nothing "low cost" about the Delta pilot's compensation package.

Like us, you are not exempt. If you believe you are, it's just wishful thinking. Nonetheless, I hope your wishes (in this regard) come true and everyone can live happily ever after. However, "Full pay to the last day" may well hasten the last day, as it has elsewhere.

To answer the question, yes, Song will "make it". I love the comparisons to Delta Express. Fact is that Delta Express is making a profit. Although it has made a profit, it wasn't set up to make a profit, but to free up more expensive mainline seats into and out of MCO when all of those people were traveling. Now we put the same cost structure, in fact less because of the other employees, onto a 199 seat jet and the costs are lowered dramatically. I have no doubt that they will flock, as they have flocked to a no frills, cramped, no food, 737-200 for almost 7 years.

As far as the rest, this is not the thread for it. You seem to be good at getting off topic and getting your little digs in at the Delta pilots. Suffice to say that you really have little knowledge of the Delta pilot situation, the "full pay to the last day situation", and the retirement situation. How could you? You have no self-interest in any of them? All you have is your little jabs. Enjoy them.

C

 

[pilotyip]

Pilolts support

Will the Delta pilot's come out of the cockpit and help clean the cabin and load bags to help make a quick turn possible? Or will the airline pilot's "It's not my job prevail? If they do then this will become a true revolution. I know pilots at the LLC's have stepped up to the plate in these very situations

 

[surplus1]

As far as the rest, this is not the thread for it. You seem to be good at getting off topic and getting your little digs in at the Delta pilots. Suffice to say that you really have little knowledge of the Delta pilot situation, the "full pay to the last day situation", and the retirement situation. How could you? You have no self-interest in any of them? All you have is your little jabs. Enjoy them.

C

Boy you really have a chip on your shoulder. If you'd set it down for a couple of hours you might realize that "digging" the Delta pilots or any other pilots is of no real interest to me. The discussion is about Song and the pros and cons that this "LCC" may produce, not Delta pilots. As a group you just happen to be in the first venture, i.e.. the guinea pigs in the experiment. That's not my doing and I don't applaud the idea.

The same concepts will apply, with minor variations, wherever a "new LCC subsidiary" is created. Witness United's "plan". The only real difference appears to be that they, thanks to bankruptcy protection, are up front with the compensation changes that this type of carrier will ultimately generate. I don't think it will be beneficial to pilot compensation packages in the long term. Not at Delta and not anywhere else.

It is in your interest and our interest that the Company succeed in this venture. I simply fear that they will ultimately do so at the expense of the pilot's compensation packages. Yours first and eventually mine. If you do not share that viewand you feel you can maintain the status quo, then I hope you are right and I am wrong.

 

[surplus1]

Like where?

I think that "slogan" originates with USAirways, lives at UAL and appears to be prevalent in pilot thinking at AA and DAL. It hasn't worked at the former two and I don't think it will work at the remaining two. Something has to give. Right now, the corporations hold the winning hand re labor and are backed by the government.

In the current scenario, which I don't see as changing (in our favor) in the near term, perhaps a different strategy by labor could produce greater benefits in the long term. A bit of rowing in the same direction just might keep the rest of us from going over the falls, like some of us already have.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Surplus,

Both U and UAL have already given massive concessions, DAL and AMR have in the past. Despite your assertion, I can think of no examples where ALPA pilots have not accepted concessions to avoid that "last day." Sometimes it has worked, sometimes it has simply led to more price wars, one reason why ALPA is now very careful about giving up hard won victories.

As far as rowing in the same direction, I think that your mec and the rjdc effectively eliminated any chance of that ever happening. I know you think the fault is ours. We think the fault is yours. And here we stand.

P.S.
Our scope clause (the section that your group is trying to eliminate) is the ONLY thing that is keeping our pilots in the cockpit of Song. You are concerned about what Song could mean in the future. I am concerned as well. However, if your group had its way, mgt would have taken our 757's and given them to cheaper labor (maybe your pilots). Once again, we are simply trying to protect our jobs. So far, in this instance, it has worked, despite all those on this board who parrot the line that scope doesn't work.

 

[skydiverdriver]

I personally hope that Song does well.