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Why would a RJ Capt. leave for CAL, DAL, UAL, UAW, or NW?

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PapaSiera

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 4, 2006
Posts
118
So I was doing some looking around on airlinepilot central, and I just can't believe those FO payscales. What makes it worse is the fact that they have lower guarentees than regionals have. DAL has a 65 hr guarentee, Continental has a 72 hr guarentee, AA has a 64. Then you look at those payrates and you are making less than an RJ captain for a long long time. Since the upgrades seem to look like atleast 10 yrs (except CAL) why is it that everyone is jumping at the majors. The FO pay is AWFUL. At United, a 2nd year FO will make $42,000. a 5th yr FO will make $65,000. In contrast lets say your a 5 year Captain at ExpressJet. You will bring home $75,000 easy. I would say most people at XJT get between 85 and 90 hrs of credit a month. So I guess XJT guys make more than Legacy drivers. That makes SICK. I don't know how ya'll do it. PLEASE tell me that you atleast get more than 65 HOURS a month of credit. Otherwise I guess the LCC's are not that bad of an option. Atleast you get more than 65 hrs of pay. And you can upgrade in 2-3 yrs. Maybe I am missing something here, but how can you be in this industry for as many yrs as it takes to get to a Major, but make less than you did flying your regional jet.

My rant is over.

PS-(I DID NOT PROOF READ THIS SO THERE MAY BE SPELLING ERRORS)
 
Quality of life, payrates if you get passed the first year and what not. Granted, I make about the same as my old 6 year RJ gig, but will blow it out of the water later this year.

Was a good fit for me based on where I live.
 
Reminds me of a dog humping a leg. I'm not sure why, nor do I care, but it seems to give them alot of self satisfaction.:D

And athough I'm not an expert, from observation, it would seem that at certain legacy bases, the farther your airplane can fly, the quality of the hookers goes way up inversely proportionally to the price.:cool:

P.S. the 64 hour at my outfit is lineholder min, reserve is 73 hours.
 
PapaSiera said:
So I was doing some looking around on airlinepilot central, and I just can't believe those FO payscales. What makes it worse is the fact that they have lower guarentees than regionals have. DAL has a 65 hr guarentee, Continental has a 72 hr guarentee, AA has a 64. Then you look at those payrates and you are making less than an RJ captain for a long long time. Since the upgrades seem to look like atleast 10 yrs (except CAL) why is it that everyone is jumping at the majors. The FO pay is AWFUL. At United, a 2nd year FO will make $42,000. a 5th yr FO will make $65,000. In contrast lets say your a 5 year Captain at ExpressJet. You will bring home $75,000 easy. I would say most people at XJT get between 85 and 90 hrs of credit a month. So I guess XJT guys make more than Legacy drivers. That makes SICK. I don't know how ya'll do it. PLEASE tell me that you atleast get more than 65 HOURS a month of credit. Otherwise I guess the LCC's are not that bad of an option. Atleast you get more than 65 hrs of pay. And you can upgrade in 2-3 yrs. Maybe I am missing something here, but how can you be in this industry for as many yrs as it takes to get to a Major, but make less than you did flying your regional jet.

My rant is over.

PS-(I DID NOT PROOF READ THIS SO THERE MAY BE SPELLING ERRORS)
Click to expand...

Trust me, I am having this conversation with myself. I am at XJT, made almost 80K this year and have 3 hard weeks of vacation (which is really 6 the way our contract works). There are also over 2000 pilots at this company jr to me. If I went to CAL, it would take FOUR YEARS (on the 73) to get to my current pay and with no medical insurance for 6 months.

It is crazy when you think about it. How far have we fallen as a group!? All that being said, I started this career with a goal in mind and it was not to fly the F-ing E-145 my whole life so I will continue to look for new opportunites. I will however not leave for certain low cost cariers and other 2nd tier freight types.

Who knows??
 
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One thing long term career. If I never upgrade seat or aircraft I will still make over $10-12/hr more as an FO then I would ever make at the regional I was at. Plus I will make that top pay in 12 years versus 18 at the regional.

2-6% match on my 401k just is not gonna cut it for the length of my career I now have a 10%(soon to be 12.75%) B fund plus my 401k that is my money. The worst thing that can happen is that they stop putting money in my account.

Yeah first year sucks but so does 19/hr at a regional but you don't see guys not going there. Plus after the 6 months the medical coverage is better and cheaper then the regional I was at.

These were my reasons. To each his own.
 
ATRCA said:
Trust me, I am having this conversation with myself. I am at XJT, made almost 80K this year and have 3 hard weeks of vacation (which is really 6 the way our contract works). There are also over 2000 pilots at this company jr to me. If I went to CAL, it would take FOUR YEARS (on the 73) to get to my current pay and with no medical insurance for 6 months.

It is crazy when you think about it. How far have we fallen as a group!? All that being said, I started this career with a goal in mind and it was not to fly the F-ing E-145 my whole life so I will continue to look for new opportunites. I will however not leave for certain low cost cariers and other 2nd tier freight types.

Who knows??
Click to expand...

To each his own but do yourself a favor, take a look at the demographics that will be voting on this next contract before you make any big decisions. I know it's a wildcard but I think it's a pretty good bet. There are a lot of young pissed off guys, something that was SORELY lacking on our last "contract."
 
19 years at Eagle, in my very early 40's.

Last 4 years averaged $122,00/year and 13 days off per month. Not a single junior man, although a few reroutes when last turn canceled. If I flew my base schedule only, I'd be around $95,000/year and average 16 days off/month. Eagle matches 87.5 % of the 8% I put in my 401(k), next year a 100% match. Started that in 1991 and now at $368,000 (got two other funds totalling almost twice that). Drive to work.

Why would I dump that for a 737 at EWR, commuting on a quarter of the pay, no better of a schedule, most likely if I did keep my pension it would be watered down, schedule worse, 401(k) worse and no job security ?

Ah what do I know.................Just another clueless RJ chump who isn't a REAL airline pilot.

But hey, that's o.k. Call me anything you want as I go to the bank with $10 grand every month (not killing myself doing it, either). At this point, it's my best bet. Almost 1 million in investments means I've funded my own retirement in 18-23 years (projected to need 2.6 million-wow !). If Eagle goes south, I'm still in failry good shape.

Keep your 737. I'll leave that slot to the 27 year old, 3000 hour RJ F/O who can make something more out of it.
 
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Eaglefly--Glad to hear a success story. Back in the old days, you could go to work for Republic (original from MN, not the cheap imitation), Frontier, Ozark, etc. and make a good living flying for an airline that was truly a "regional".

You'll have a lot better QOL than many legacy pilots who get hired on the backside of the hiring cycle.

Good luck. TC
 
We are looking at all time highs in pay at regionals and making arguments against all time lows at the majors. The industry runs in a big circle. I am sure that the major rates will go up. When that happens, if you stay at a regional, you will be one of those senior guys that is pi$$ed off he never left.
 
Simple Answer

The quick answer to your question: do what's best for you and your family. No one is FORCING you to do anything. If you are happy where you are...great. I don't think anyone is putting a gun to your head to leave the regionals.
However, most of us joined this profession for one reason or another and the basis of those reasons lie with the majors/legacies. To each his own.
 
Left TSA in '98 after 5 years. Was in training for the Jungle Jet when I quit.

Been at ATA for 8.5 years. With all the BS that's gone on here, I'm still better off. I don't regret the decision to leave.

However, I'd still like to get on with SWA or FEDEX. Maybe UPS. Those are the only carriers that I can afford to go to.
 
generaltso said:
It's a real lifer convention in here... pathetic.
Click to expand...
Reality is that nearly half of "mainline's" flying is being performed by sub contractors. Regionals are performing all the DC-9, Folker Jet, 737 and most of the 727 routes, as well as a lot of South America. This means there are not nearly the number of mainline jobs there used to be. Delta's list went from over 10,000 to only 6,000.

Call us lifers (maybe not me much longer) but the numbers speak for themselves. Going to a major is a no brainer good move for someone young. For those of us who got caught at a regional in our early thirties when 9/11 happened and who are now around forty - it is hard to justify a move that will require 7 to 12 years to break even on.

My crystal ball says the Regionals are in for a rough ride because they have no brand. The majors still own the brand and have much more negotiating power to improve their contracts. However, they will be stuck competing with the regionals on the small equipment.

Look at the situation with the US Air recalls who might get stuck in the right seat of the E190 for around $40 an hour. Ouch - they deserve better.
 
Eaglefly,

If I were in your shoes I wouldn't jump ship either.

In my case I would be a 6th year CRJ Capt if I had stayed at CMR. I'm starting year 2 at JetBlue and I'm back to even on pay. The only thing I've lost is a weeks vacation and with the way vacation is administered here and at CMR I'm still better off at JetBlue. JetBlue's retirement is better, I'd much rather fly my one or two leg days versus 4-5 day legs, I don't have to schlep my bag up and down the steps, no hat, better management/labor relationship, and the long term earning potential is in a different league than an RJ CA. At CMR I'd still be on reserve as a junior CA and to top it off I would also have to commute to JFK. IMO it was a no-brainer. I'm much better off at JetBlue.

Everybody's circumstances are different. What worked for me may not work for someone else.
 
I think if you're truly happy and comfy at a regional, why leave? I would say the only reason for leaving would be for the money, but even that is coming up short these days.

I don't know about UAL and CAL, but an 8th year MD80 f/o at AA is right at $100/hr, and next year it'll be $104/hr. Granted, these are 30% less than what we used to make, but a HECK of a lot more than what I would've made as an 8th year ACA pilot. And if we get close to what we want with the next contract, we should be at close to $120/hr on 8th year pay. Throw in the trip/duty rigs, our A and B fund (if it doesn't go away) and overall quality of life and you have a pretty attractive offer in most cases.

If I was still at a regional today, I'd still want to move on just to get out of that "third world pilot" mentality that I experienced on a daily basis when I was there. It sucked being looked down upon by other "real" airline pilots. Plus, I couldn't stand the overall regional mentality and depending on the major's code share affiliation.

But like everyone else said, it really depends on your situation. If you are middle aged, pretty senior and comfy at the regionals, it might not make financial sense to leave.

JMO, 73
 
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generaltso said:
It's a real lifer convention in here... pathetic.
Click to expand...

Yea, just what we need...a lecture from the big shot Embry-Riddle CHQ FO who has been a "real" airline pilot for what..........like a year now. Get real. You thought you were cool calling everyone a lifer back when the Seminole was a big airplane.

Join the discussion when you have more than 2k in your logbook. Run along now!
 
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ACL65PILOT said:
We are looking at all time highs in pay at regionals and making arguments against all time lows at the majors. The industry runs in a big circle. I am sure that the major rates will go up. When that happens, if you stay at a regional, you will be one of those senior guys that is pi$$ed off he never left.
Click to expand...

Good post and I agree. I think for most like myself leaving is the right thing. I am single, have no children and am in pretty ok financial shape. The real problem is for the 10 year guy who is making around 100K with all the trappings. Wives and children can make things complicated. All that being said, I think there are only 1 or 2 regionals that have the contract and bennies to entertain such notions.
 
pay sucks, but i'm 26 and can't wait to get the heck out of regional land and fly something big. If I got hired in 2-4 years from now....I'll still have 30 years left (35 w/age 65). Lots and lots and lots of time left to make more than what I'll make as a RJ Capt.
 
~~~^~~~ said:
For those of us who got caught at a regional in our early thirties when 9/11 happened and who are now around forty - it is hard to justify a move that will require 7 to 12 years to break even on.
Click to expand...

Once you get to a point where you done your "Golden Handcuffs" it is very difficult to go back to making 30G's a year after making 80-90G's a year. I understand the reasoning of both the older generation and younger generation and you are both right. Things will probably improve in the next few years and for somebody who is in his early 30's and single (Or your wife has supporting income) It makes sence to go to the majors. Now for somebody in his mid 40's (My case) It just doesn't make any sence to do that because by the time that I break even in pay is the time my oldest will be going to college and by that time 80 to 90 G's a year won't do anymore.
When you are in your 40's there is only so many years left to secure your retirement and what is it that you are going to do after the final flight. Yes, you do investments and you make a side business but if life trapped you at your mid 40's at the point to make that descision, choose for the higher income for as long as you can.
Contract work outside of the US industry is an option for the older generation
 
Dumb Pilot said:
Once you get to a point where you done your "Golden Handcuffs" it is very difficult to go back to making 30G's a year after making 80-90G's a year. I understand the reasoning of both the older generation and younger generation and you are both right. Things will probably improve in the next few years and for somebody who is in his early 30's and single (Or your wife has supporting income) It makes sence to go to the majors. Now for somebody in his mid 40's (My case) It just doesn't make any sence to do that because by the time that I break even in pay is the time my oldest will be going to college and by that time 80 to 90 G's a year won't do anymore.
When you are in your 40's there is only so many years left to secure your retirement and what is it that you are going to do after the final flight. Yes, you do investments and you make a side business but if life trapped you at your mid 40's at the point to make that descision, choose for the higher income for as long as you can.
Contract work outside of the US industry is an option for the older generation
Click to expand...

I generally agree but there are exceptions. I made the jump at 47 and for me it was the right call. YMMV.
 
We are talking atleast 7-8 years to break even guys. if you do the math you will see that at Continental it would take about 7 yrs on the 737 compared to XJT. Don't just look at the hourly rate, look year by year of your earnings vs. CAL if you would have stayed. For you to totally break even on the deal it will take 7 yrs.
 
PapaSiera said:
Im not talking about 1st year pay guys....I understand that. Im talking about lousy 5th, 6th, 7th year pay at place like United at a 65 hr guarentee. Take a look for yourself. http://airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/legacy/united.html

A 10 year 737 FO makes $70,000...SICK
A 10 year 737 FO at WN makes $120,000 atleast. THAT DOUBLE!!

And yes....you will be a 10 year FO at United. Probably a 15 yr FO.
Click to expand...

If you are a 10 year F/O at WN, you are holding Lance CA (even in the senior bases). Most of the Lance CA's I fly with try to drop their F/O stuff and fly as CA as much as possible. They make far more than $122K doing this. Upgrades are running 6 years or so right now. Anyone who is sitting F/O at 10 years is doing so by choice.
 
mach zero said:
If you are a 10 year F/O at WN, you are holding Lance CA (even in the senior bases). Most of the Lance CA's I fly with try to drop their F/O stuff and fly as CA as much as possible. They make far more than $122K doing this. Upgrades are running 6 years or so right now. Anyone who is sitting F/O at 10 years is doing so by choice.
Click to expand...

I was just making a comparison, im not suggesting WN has 10 year FO's.
United does though!!!
 
Can some of the legacy drivers chime in and tell us if you get over 65 hours of credit per month. Are lines only built to 65-70hrs?
 
WHAT WAS I THINKING LEAVING PINNACLE FOR DELTA??? I'm such a freaking idiot... I can't believe I thought getting awarded the 767 6 months after getting hired was a good idea....





By the way- guarantee means jack. Average line values are around 73-82 hours around these parts. Premium pay pick ups on reserve dont take away your days off and go on top of your guarantee pay, no matter how little you flew that month.
 
ATRCA said:
Trust me, I am having this conversation with myself. I am at XJT, made almost 80K this year and have 3 hard weeks of vacation (which is really 6 the way our contract works). There are also over 2000 pilots at this company jr to me. If I went to CAL, it would take FOUR YEARS (on the 73) to get to my current pay and with no medical insurance for 6 months.

It is crazy when you think about it. How far have we fallen as a group!? All that being said, I started this career with a goal in mind and it was not to fly the F-ing E-145 my whole life so I will continue to look for new opportunites. I will however not leave for certain low cost cariers and other 2nd tier freight types.

Who knows??
Click to expand...

Remember your company is a mere sub-contractor. You may have had a good run. but the future is not in small jets. Why did CO ax flying for what is it? 69 of your small jets? Cost! Your independent operation doesn't stand a chance (can you say Indy Air?)

I too had a great run at a regional, very senior, check airmen, etc, took a pay cut to leave, etc. That was 9 years ago, never regreted it, very happy I left. A code share change later, my former company is a mere shell of what it was, my timing was prefect!

Bottom Line, regionals are places to get time and move on, don't get trapped by your paycheck. Majors are not the most stable companies in world, but traditionally regionals are even less stable.
 
flyguy81 said:
pay sucks, but i'm 26 and can't wait to get the heck out of regional land and fly something big. If I got hired in 2-4 years from now....I'll still have 30 years left (35 w/age 65). Lots and lots and lots of time left to make more than what I'll make as a RJ Capt.
Click to expand...

You're absolutely correct. I thought the same thing, but then 19 nutbags changed aviation forever on 9-11 and I wasn't going to wait for the industry to rebound and continue on it's way for me to continue my life.

Good luck and always prepare to be where you are for the long haul because you just never know.
 

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