WHY WHY WHY..why R we hiring 210 hr pilots?

[Flyingdude]

Many people missing the point

Many of you are missing the point here. I have also flown with good pilots that were both low time and higher time. You are not a good pilot just because you have higher flight times. The point that many are trying to make is that those with more time dealt with wx and other factors that those without have not. These ab-initio programs have proven that a 200hr. pilot can fly a ILS as good as anybody else when things are going according to plan. It is getting the plane on the ground safely when things are going wrong(mechanical problems, weather, and rapidly changing conditions, etc.). Gaining this experience can only be done in the real world, not in a sim. That is why an extra 500--1000hrs. does make you more prepared to fly a jet. During those extra hours you are likely to encounter difficult situations that you must get yourself out of , and it is this that will make you a better pilot. It does not mean you are better soley because you have more hours, but instead better because you have gained more of the most important knowledge. Any 200hr pilot can be trained to fly profiles, but dealing with difficult situations in the air can only be done well by those who have survived them in the past. I am simply saying that someone with more time has a better foundation upon which to draw from.The majority of these low time pilots are very smart and will make excellent pilots. When the krap hits the fan you can only pull from your past experiences, if you have no previous real world experience then you are just another pilot that can fly a perfect ILS in normal conditions.

 

[Flapjack]

"Ummm, you DO still need 250hrs. to get your commercial certificate...So 210 hrs would seem a bit impossible in the 121 environment."

Part 141 is different - got mine around 190 hours.

The single biggest problem with a low-time pilot (straight out of school, less than 1000 hours) is that they just don't know what they don't know. You can't help it - the flight schools tell you how great and how complete your training is.

The best training known to mankind will teach you procedures. Nothing but experience in command teaches decision making. CFIs, night cargo runners, fighter pilots - all make command decisions. This cannot be stressed enough.

Passing the checkride, having good landings, not getting fired once on the line...That is the lowest common denominator. That is literally the lowest rung on the ladder of competency. Go ahead and get hired with low time - just be incredibly boot-licking humble when you get there. You will learn a lot.

The worst part of low-timers at an airline is that when they upgrade, the STILL don't have the practice making decisions. But now they are in charge of their duties, the duties of the FO, the FA, and the entire aircraft. The scope of the responsibility just increased exponentially, and these decisions must be made real world, real time, live without a net. You won't even understand why this is a big deal until you actually do it for awhile.

Put in a couple of years in the right seat, get your upgrade, and you will learn a whole new world all over again. And you will FEAR flying with a low-time pilot in a challenging situation because it's like flying single pilot with a constant distraction - even if the guy has been trained from the best.

Nothing against low timers - it's not your fault that you get hired too soon. But you are too green for the job, and that's just the way it is, college / ab-initio guys. I know, because I was one of you and I am telling y'all that 250 hours and your ratings is just the start.

Some claim that because there are lousy high-time pilots, that must correlate somehow to the number of incompetent low-timers, too. Couldn't be any worse logic - SOME high timers can't cut it because they are in the wrong line of work. But NO low timers can be considered full pilots until they get some practice making decisions.

Blame the airlines, and the airlines alone, for the fact that low timers get hired. But if you're lucky enough to get hired early, just try to listen to your captains as much as you can. Good luck!

 

[gkrangers]

~220 hours and I've yet to fly anything with more than one engine.

 

[MarineGrunt]

~220 hours and I've yet to fly anything with more than one engine.

I wouldn't worry about that just yet. Just make sure you have 100me when you hit 1000tt. Thats the big hurdle for most...

 

[Thedude]

Out of these foreign carriers that people profess about hiring a 200hr wonder. How many of these wonders actually go straight into the right seat for t/o and landing. The majority of these guys are cruise crews meaning they are nothing more that auto-pilot babysitters and high speed radio operators.

 

[QXpeon]

I've flown with people who have 3,000+ hours who are horrible pilots with bad judgement. Often it comes down to the person.

I do agree, however, that 200-300 hours is just too few hours. Why can't these people wait a bit and gain experience until they have at least 750+ hours? Even that is pushing it a bit. Are these airlines just too desparate?

Agreed. The (6 year) Capt. I'm flying with right now can't fly an approach to save his life.

 

[Ty Webb]

Pure Cowbell!

The worst part of low-timers at an airline is that when they upgrade, the STILL don't have the practice making decisions. But now they are in charge of their duties, the duties of the FO, the FA, and the entire aircraft. The scope of the responsibility just increased exponentially, and these decisions must be made real world, real time, live without a net. You won't even understand why this is a big deal until you actually do it for awhile.

Put in a couple of years in the right seat, get your upgrade, and you will learn a whole new world all over again. And you will FEAR flying with a low-time pilot in a challenging situation because it's like flying single pilot with a constant distraction - even if the guy has been trained from the best.

Nothing against low timers - it's not your fault that you get hired too soon. But you are too green for the job, and that's just the way it is, college / ab-initio guys. I know, because I was one of you and I am telling y'all that 250 hours and your ratings is just the start.

Some claim that because there are lousy high-time pilots, that must correlate somehow to the number of incompetent low-timers, too. Couldn't be any worse logic - SOME high timers can't cut it because they are in the wrong line of work. But NO low timers can be considered full pilots until they get some practice making decisions.

Blame the airlines, and the airlines alone, for the fact that low timers get hired. But if you're lucky enough to get hired early, just try to listen to your captains as much as you can. Good luck!

Ding! DIng! DIng! We have a winner. . . . . Actually, one of the best posts I have seen on here here in 8+ years. Very well put. We need more posts like this one . . . Pure Cowbell.

 

[flyer172r]

But if you're lucky enough to get hired early, just try to listen to your captains as much as you can. Good luck!

Which means the Captain also has the responsibility to teach the FO as much as he can, when he can, so that the FO isn't completely lost when they upgrade. No, I'm not saying the Captain's job is to teach the FO how to fly, but I always appreciate flying with Captains who point out "Captain things" (for lack of a better term) and include the FO in the entire flight.

 

[gkrangers]

I wouldn't worry about that just yet. Just make sure you have 100me when you hit 1000tt. Thats the big hurdle for most...

Of course. But I couldn't handle a Seminole, much less an RJ at this point.

 

[Freightdog75]

Funny quick story.......................

day 1 of initial. One gal in class sitting around before class starts says "I can't believe it, I've finally made it........it's been so hard to get here". She had less than 600TT and like 2 ME. To darn funny.

By the way she washed out and rightfully so.

FD75

 

[JumpCaptain]

How'd she only have 2 hrs multi? Don't you need 5-10 just to get a multi license?

Where'd she get dinged... ...the sim, right?

 

[Flyer1015]

Out of these foreign carriers that people profess about hiring a 200hr wonder. How many of these wonders actually go straight into the right seat for t/o and landing. The majority of these guys are cruise crews meaning they are nothing more that auto-pilot babysitters and high speed radio operators.

Remember the Gulf Air A320 crash about six years ago on approach into Bahrain?

The F/O was an ab-initio pilot, hired with 0 hours. Gulf Air paid him for all his training, etc, and he was RIGHT SEAT on the A320 with 200 hours total time.

At the time of the accident, he had 400 hours on the A320, so about 600 hours total.

One of the factors of the crash was a lack of CRM, and the fact that the F/O never really spoke up when he should have.

Look at page 12 of the official report:

http://www.bahrainairport.com/caa/gf072/pdf/factual-information.pdf

 

[flylowman]

It is not the time that makes you experienced. It is the stupid stuff you do and the lessons you learn. I am still don't know everything I should, and I know that 200 hr pilots are not experienced enough for airline flying

 

[taloft]

Send your stuff to ASA; we are taking anyone with a heartbeat at the moment.
I heard we hired someone with 180 hours, but I have yet to verify that. I
assume he was Part 141.

LOL, last I checked it was 250 hours for a commercial ticket part 61 and 190 hours part 141. You mean you're hiring people who are still private pilots? What has this industry come to? :nuts:

 

[FlyBunny]

"Are we ready to fly with a person who has 215 total hours in the middle of winter in the mid west?"

If you're not, then tell your CP and DO that you're not and refuse to fly with someone who has 215 hours. You will find out who they would keep: A 215 hour newbie or someone with thousands of hours like yourself.

On the second thought...I might have misunderstood your questions which you may have directed at your own ability whether you can handle someone with so few hours due to their experience or your own prejudice towards those who got hired with lot less hours then you and me.

Fly Safe!
Bunny

 

[FlyBunny]

"Remember the Gulf Air A320 crash about six years ago on approach into Bahrain?

The F/O was an ab-initio pilot, hired with 0 hours. Gulf Air paid him for all his training, etc, and he was RIGHT SEAT on the A320 with 200 hours total time.

At the time of the accident, he had 400 hours on the A320, so about 600 hours total.

One of the factors of the crash was a lack of CRM, and the fact that the F/O never really spoke up when he should have."


Remember the American Airlines pilots with amazing CRM skills and many thousands of hours who ran the plane off the runway at Little Rock?

Remember, the American 747 pilots who missed the Taxi way at Tenerife (March 27, 1977) and contributed to the worst aviation accident in history.

Remember the UAL crew (three very experience people) who ‘ran out of fuel’ near PDX?

Remember the American pilots who flew the airplane in the bridge and river near DCA in 1982 – the F/O was the F-15 (Reserve I think) pilot.

NUMBER OF HOURS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH HOW GOOD YOU FLY! QULITY SUPERCEDED QUANTITY.

And how about the FedEx (MD-11 I think it was) that crashed and burned because the (very experience pilot) simply didn’t align the airplane on the runway in strong cross-wind and the captain was unable to take the corrective action either.

I rest my case!

Bunny

 

[Alchemy]

As modern tranport category aircraft become more and more fool proof (GPWS, configuration warnings, EICAS messages, FMS "Check Baro Set", Flight Directors, Alitutde alerters, autopilots), they are increasingly easy to operatee. The job can now be safely carried out by relatively inexperienced pilots. Non-Emergency decision making can be easily supplemented by conferring with Dispatch via ACARS.

This does not bode well for the profession. As experience counts for less and less, eventually a trained monkey will be able to fly an airliner, and ultimately, pay will dwindle until the airliners will fly themselves, probably by the year 2080. The profession "airplane pilot" will eventually go the way of "telegraph operator".

 

[superrav]

Because they have demostrated that they can handle it.

and....because they'll take it up the ass when contract neg's come...why? because they just came from flying flight sim to a regional jet and dont care about the pay..

 

[Flapjack]

FlyBunny,

Please give the statistics a rest. You won't ever prove your point by showing that pilots sometimes crash airplanes, and that some of them have tons of experience. Everyone knows that already. There is a lot more to the story.

There's no way to report, statistically, how many times every single day that captains keep green, low-time FOs from doing something stupid. Or from wetting themselves. Ok, just kidding about the wetting thing, I admit it was uncalled for! ha ha ha ha I digress.

Actually, there's a lot of weak captains that need the support of strong FOs. When I have seen this, usually the FO has a strong background in something that honed their decision making skills. Those FOs know what's up because they had some practice being a PIC.

Seriously, the only ones that ever say that it's a good idea to put extremely low time pilots in an airliner are other low timers. It's not a knock, it's a perception thing. I thought the same thing when I had 300 hours.

Remember when you were 17 years old? You knew it all, and your parents were way too "out of it" to tell you anything. Next thing you know you turn thirty, and you can't stand the music on the pop stations. Ah, there I go.

I don't mean to offend or discourage anyone from pursuing their goals however they see fit. I'm just trying to keep it real.

More cowbell? Ding!

 

[pianoman]

The most important thing is knowing what you don't know and working hard to learn and improve.