WHY WHY WHY..why R we hiring 210 hr pilots?

[Tooslow]

JAL hires 250 hour pilots that they trained in Napa, CA. Directly into the right seat of a 777 or 747.......oh well

 

[snap145]

"Our students get hired at Mesa"... I don't think there's any guarentees, at least the Gulfstream guys get real experience whether it's a 1900 or not.

tell the 1900 guys from Gulfstream who payed to sit in that seat to come fly an approach to mins in the dead of winter at ohare....then they can say they have expirience.

 

[viper548]

i like what boilerup had to say...good points.....
so here is another scenario.....
military guys some out of basic flight training with roughly the same amount of time (250-300)...having only been in a flight training enviroment....then they head off to training for their type of aircraft (ie. kc-135, 130's, c-17, blah blah).....again they are highy supervised in a contained environment....when all is said and done they graduate and go stright to their unit with roughly 350hrs of flight time.....now, i know how good the military is and their training is the best in the world, but if people are going to compare pilots based on their flight time as a way to gauge experience seems to me that military and non are in the same boat.....
if a person can handle the work load and get the job done whats the difference? the gov't approved them to fly (although thats another issue.....ugghhhh), they have jumped all the hurdles.....
however, i find it hard to believe that there are companies out there that will pick up the 215 hr pilot......
one more thing....this whole SJS issue(i'm in a turboprop so i guess i don't follow).....what are the guys that go into the military referred to as for going into a jet with 350-400hrs? they have the same dream as the rest of us that got into the industry....whatever, this $hit is fun to read and it makes me look busy around my lady.....

The military screens people before they send them to pilot training. Anyone can go to the local flight school and plop down a wad of cash for training.

In the military, if you aren't cutting the mustard you are removed from training and given a desk job. At the local flight school, busting a stage check will just set you back another couple hundred dollars.

 

[SkyBoy1981]

I agree that some schools will "groom" students to be regional pilots, but the problem seems to be that these folks still lack basic skill on some things. Yeah, they are knowledgeable and can quote aircraft systems, FARs, callouts, and profiles like its written on the back of their hands. The problem is that they get their asses kicked as soon as the autopilot comes off in a good stiff crosswind. They are more concerned with making sure that the landing lights come on at the right time than keeping the airplane on the localizer. The fact is, there is more to being a good pilot than your ability to memorize books and numbers. And for the record, I don't consider myself to be a great pilot either....I'm still learning....but I try not to put all of my eggs in one basket. Having the common skills to be able to fly the airplane safely is, in my book, the most important thing.

 

[808pilot]

viper548....you're right...they get cut out of the program....thats not the discussion.....they will have the same flt time...different experiences and training yes, but same amount of time.....i'll bet you anything that a commander of say a c-17 that gets a guy right out of training is probably thinking "holy $hit, i hope this guy can keep up".....my best friend told me that when he finishes kc-135 training that he will be left seat qualified as well....he'll have around 400hrs....hopping into a 707 and being the one in charge....does he qualify as having enough 'experience' to do the job? i know he'll have all the information on what to do when $hit goes down, but can/will he keep a level head? who knows.....same goes for these low timers....they may have it all down and wired and may be $hit hot, but can/will he keep a level head? who knows.....see where i'm headed?
wait, why do i care? oh yeah....i'm looking busy.....

 

[overqualified]

you jack a$$e$ saying that low time pilots should not be hired are hypocrits. you would have applied and taken a job at those hours when you were still in diapers if allowed to. stop knocking everyone that is trying to improve themselves and make the next step. i've known guys with 600hrs that are great and deserve the job and i've known guys with 6000hrs that can't complete a go-around without almost killing everyone on board. find something else to complain about while sitting on your buts

 

[viper548]

viper548....you're right...they get cut out of the program....thats not the discussion.....they will have the same flt time...different experiences and training yes, but same amount of time.....i'll bet you anything that a commander of say a c-17 that gets a guy right out of training is probably thinking "holy $hit, i hope this guy can keep up".....my best friend told me that when he finishes kc-135 training that he will be left seat qualified as well....he'll have around 400hrs....hopping into a 707 and being the one in charge....does he qualify as having enough 'experience' to do the job? i know he'll have all the information on what to do when $hit goes down, but can/will he keep a level head? who knows.....same goes for these low timers....they may have it all down and wired and may be $hit hot, but can/will he keep a level head? who knows.....see where i'm headed?
wait, why do i care? oh yeah....i'm looking busy.....

These guys are comming out of training qualified in the right and left seat. That does NOT mean they are qualified to be Aircraft Commander. The military doesn't make the guy in charge always sit in the left seat. You're right, when these guys get to their units, the other guys hope they know what they are doing. Not all of them do, I've seen it first hand.

There are pilots with 400 hours that can handle flying a jet. Most pilots that went throught military training should be able to handle it. I'm sure there are quite a few civilian trained pilots that would be able to handle it too.

 

[808pilot]

i am that low time guy that got hired....i did apply.....read the posts you super savy CFI and you'll find some of us defending the hiring of lower time guys......oh wait, i got it...mesa turned you down...you must be crushed....stop your crying on this site and spend your time on your resume so that you to can be that low time guy that everyone can yell at.......shhhhhh here comes my wife....i'm looking busy.....

 

[maddog805]

Someday when you ladies upgrade, you'll understand.

 

[Reebo]

Now lets take somebody with 600 hours and a CFI with 200 dual given. They have knowledge of transport aircraft systems and extensive experience in transport aircraft simulators, lots of time IFR in the system, maybe 50-100 multi and might have flown turbine aircraft or two into the flight levels (albeit under the close eye of an experienced captain).

600tt does not equal lots of time in the system.

 

[aviatrix]

Mesa's got 200 hour FO's and they are scary!!!!

 

[Otto Coarsen]

L. Skywalker, I'm not being rude or anything, just making an observation here. If you've been to 5 interviews and are still pounding concrete, it is quite obvious you aren't interviewing right. It's quite possible that you could be a proficient pilot, a good guy, and an asset to any of the flight departments you've interviewed at, but for some reason are just coming off wrong to the interviewers.

I'd be interested to know how you personally felt you came off at these interviews. Unless its something of the nature of a violation, past positive drug test, or your logbook is filled out in crayon, I'd assume you might be coming off as cocky, overbearing, timid, or nervously inarticulate. If this is the case, it's all a matter of attitude adjustment that you can work on and nail an interview with good preparation. I wish you luck and hope you do find something that suits you. Seriously though, assess you last few interview experiences and think about where you went wrong. Take it from there and try it again. If you fill out the airlineapps.com for Mesa, I'm sure you'd get a call for an interview moments after you hit the send button. If you do, I can give you some pointers on making it through the process.

 

[Dinger]

Because they have demostrated that they can handle it.

Handle what......the radios? You're a tool if you think a 250 hour TT pilot is ready to fly right seat in any capacity but a safety pilot. Stop diluting the profession with bed-wetting CFI's.

 

[indianboy7]

eh..the quote didn't work, but this is in response to those who say that the European airlines put low (200 hour) pilots into FO seats with no problems...I'll agree with that statement, however, after having taught many of those pilots, I can tell you that they aren't any shmucks off the streets. These kids have to have a college degree, not to mention successfully pass the European written exams (a complete and utter Bitch compared to US writtens)...On top of all that, before they can start training, they take all kinds of tests, psychological, dexterity, coordination etc. etc. etc. ..they have tests for all mental and physical capabilities that a pilot should have.

Then the training....it's hardcore, very intense. They're expected to continually perform to high standards from day one. They are graded every day on their flight performance. They are also graded every day on their attitude, ability to adapt, personality, etc. etc.

As I said before, I taught many of these guys, and all of them without exception had excellent skills and mental capabilities....these guys were sharp. I'd put any one of these guys into the FO seat in any airplane because they were capable.......the problem with these low time guys in RJ's here in the US is that they don't go through the testing and intense training. They are not monitored every day to see if they'll succeed in an airline environment. The ones that do wash out probably don't have any business in a complex airplane....the ones that make through work extremely hard and pass the tests....Some are extremely qualified like the European people, and some are not.....that's the problem...it's a toss up

 

[Otto Coarsen]

When I got hired on at Mesa about 1 year and 10 months ago, I was hired into the Dash-8 as a captain. At the time, I had been an FO for a few months on a SF-340, and had about 2900 TT, with most of that being single pilot ops with Cape Air and Martinaire, plus about 1300 hours of CFI'ing.

Though I met the Captain mins, and had a wide variety of experience (very little of which was 121) I was overwhelmed with the task at hand of being a Captain. I assured myself that I could do it, and I needed to embrace this lucky and well timed opportunity. When I hit the line, the real learning process began. Sure, I was technically proficient enough to do the job, and being at Mesa meant I also had to learn REAL QUICK about operational irregularities, but the bottom line was that I had to rely for several months heavily on the imput from FOs who had been flying the system for some time.

When I first started this gig, as a guy who ate dirt as a CFI and paid years of 135 dues, I was very skeptical and disheartened over the fact that there were numerous ultra-low time San Juaners in the right seat of the Dash flying in and out of Aspen, Eagle, Gunnison etc etc.... and would be with me, a green as he!! captain with mostly single pilot, east coast experience in the left seat. But much to my astonishment, these guys who averaged 400-700 hours TT were some really reliable, knowlegable, and proficient pilots. As someone who is now more settled in to the job, and has flown with pretty much every experience level FO Mesa has to offer, I will say with confidence that most of the San Juaners I've flown with are some of the best FOs out there from a safety and proficiency standpoint.

Now I'd still say that taking the longer road ultimately is the best route to 121 flying. More than anything, folks who have done so have a more realistic grasp on the industry in general, and also prove better under adverse conditions. But I routinely see FOs with 2000 hrs screw up as much if not more than one of far less time. It's really all about the individual.

In the case of the San Juaner FOs I've flown with on the Dash, Most are older (35-45) and have "worldly experience" that has if nothing else humbled them into being hard workers and intense studiers. Several have engineering degrees, some post-grad, and resumes worthy of a NASA job. One has a law enforcement background, one's a former Marine, one guy quit med school and travelled around the world for years between ski-patrol seasons. There are a couple young guys, but even they are sort of "brainiacs".

So, I guess my point is that on paper it sounds like these low time people are a safety hazard and a bad idea, but I tell you, you'd be impressed with what I've seen out of those folks. Everyone has a different story and followed a different path to get where they are. As a low timer eating $hit, I would have talked trash about San Juaners in jealosy, but would have probably jumped at that kind of opportunity should it have been presented. I will say however, eating the proverbial "feces" gave me some great memories, good bros, and I wouldn't trade it for anything.

 

[puddlejumper101]

What airline is this? I want to know so I never put my family on them.

215 hours? I thought the few 800 hour guys I had as an F/O back in the TP days were bad. They were decent as long as you had good weather and nothing went wrong. They were pretty much a useless bag of meat in anything other than that.

215 hours right seat of an RJ? This has got to be a joke right.

dude...hate to burst your bubble but they have all done it...yup you heard it...might not be public but most, if not all regionals have. ASA, Xpressjet, Eagle, Comair, ACA(used to), and all the pay for training carriers...you guys might not believe me, but they have all done it. I know for a fact, there are published mins...and then there are the other mins...in fact...believe it or not...at an undisclosed regional, the guys that busted training where never the low timers...the difference was they had to come from a structured program...like riddle, purdue, flight safety, etc...this is not a new concept guys...they have been at it for years now.

not to add fuel to the fire...but say you take the top 5% of purdue and riddle grads...with their 200 hours and put them in a jet...isn't that the same as a company like Microsoft taking the top 5% of MIT grads and putting them in charge? Or the Air Force commisioning the top students from the Air Force Academy and giving them flight slots? Guys flight time is important...but attitude and judgement is what kills you in an airplane...especially when its structured training. I am in the left seat of a CRJ...and the guys that scare me are not the 200, 300, 500, 900 hour guys...the ones that scare me are the cocky bastards that think they are chuck yeager with 100 hours or 10000 hours

 

[relief tube]

low time guys will be hired as long as there's RJ seats to fill. And the current industry with it's $29 fares and $70/barrel gas forces the legacy's to take the flying from their pilots and give it to the regionals because they are cheaper. 90 seaters at the regionals are the perfect example. It's a disgrace, that plane belongs at mainline. So the regionals are growing, the furloughed mainline guys aren't going to accpet $21 an hour working at some crappy regional, but the 21 year old CFI with 200 hrs will.

Don't be mad at the pilot, dont be mad at the regional. It's those cut-throat competitive, low-cost airlines that start the price-war with their $29 fares that force a bar-lowering in this industry. Competition in this industry is bad for us pilots.

You've seen it where we fly too. Rampers are now 18 years old, even the fuelers are right out of junior high.

 

[SkyBoy1981]

dude...hate to burst your bubble but they have all done it...yup you heard it...might not be public but most, if not all regionals have. ASA, Xppresjet, Eagle, Comair, ACA(used to), and all the pay for training carriers...you guys might not believe me, but they have all done it. I know for a fact, there are published mins...and then there are the other mins...in fact...believe it or not...at an undisclosed regional, the guys that busted training where never the low timers...the difference was they had to come from a structured program...like riddle, purdue, flight safety, etc...this is not a new concept guys...they have been at it for years now

Dude....I hate to bust your bubble but....who's Xppresjet?

 

[puddlejumper101]

Dude....I hate to bust your bubble but....who's Xppresjet?

my bad...i am a pilot for a reason...COEX..is that better?

 

[SkyBoy1981]

my bad...i am a pilot for a reason...COEX..is that better?

Just messing with ya.