Why the RJDC is sooo nervous

[KingAirer]

It wouldn't come a moment too soon for business traveler Chick.

"I hate those little things," he said.

This guy is probably 300lbs and 6'7.

 

[jarhead]

jarhead,


Please, please re-read the article. Not all passengers are just looking for low fares. It looks like the passengers we WANT, the last minute high fare ones, continually look for ways to AVOID RJs. Don't take it from me, read the article again. Now sometimes they don't have a choice--like the DFW-CLE routing (in the article). But, if they do---they will avoid RJs on long flights and happily go AA on their MD80s.


Bye Bye--General Lee

On that I will agree. I always fly mainline a/c given a choice. When I used to Non Rev from MSP to CVG I ALWAYS picked the larger mainline aircraft over the RJ when available seats were to be had. I'd always try for first class as well, and was often successful with that. It was only when the only choice was a 50 RJ that I'd list myself on that one. Frequently it meant showing up at MSP at 4:45 a.m., so I was a happier camper in the larger a/c for the 1 hour 40 minute flight to CVG.

However, if I lived in a town small enough that it could not support a mainline connection, I'd gladly take an RJ point to point, if it meant avoiding the hassle of a hub connection.

BTW, Delta has stopped all mainline travel now between MSP and CVG, so the only non-rev game in town for me is DCI. It still beats driving 720 miles.

 

[shamrock]

Do you think there would be such animosity towards RJs on this board if there were DAL pilots up front?

Just a thought.

 

[acaTerry]

Having flown the E170 as a pax, I know that passengers will appreciate these and the E190 aircraft. The E170 retains the "big airplane" feel and it has plenty of room. In fact, it is much, much nicer than the CRJ700 and CRJ900 which retain the tube feel and limited seat and bin space. I think Jet Blue will do very well with the E190 because it has world class economics and that "big airplane" feel that the passengers NEED...

I agree with most of what you said, but these bigger "regional" jets are still no better for the industry (employees) because while bigger, they are still in the hands of cheap a$$ regional airlines.

 

[General Lee]

Shamrock,


I don't think it would change. Remember, I am not against the RJ or RJ pilots in general, just the fact that RJs have been taking (via fleet planning) many ex mainline routes that we all know should not have happened. We all know that an RJ on a 3-4 hour flight is NOT comfortable for any passenger. Is it better than losing the route? Maybe. But, we will not get any last minute high paying passengers, and we will fill it with money losing fare sale passengers that have no teeth.


I think there are some routes that do warrent RJs, and I think they should be used for some point to point that makes sense. I also think some of our furloughs should have had the chance to fly those new RJs IF more of the mainline planes were to be parked and replaced with new, larger RJs. I would not have advocated kicking anyone out of their current RJs---and certainly NOT furloughing ANY DCI person. A lot of my concern was with NEW RJ orders and possible parking of future mainline aircraft. It doesn't seem like that will be the case now, since the 50 seat RJ and possibly the 70 seat RJ will soon lose steam and 100 seaters will probably start being the new "in" aircraft in the near future......But, there will always be a need for 50 and 70 seaters--in certain markets.....JMO.



Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[NYRANGERS]

Do you think there would be such animosity towards RJs on this board if there were DAL pilots up front?

Just a thought.

What?? The fact that the rj's are losing their luster has nothing to do with you or me. The animosity is comming from pax who can either fly on an rj or a A320, B717, B777 etc, etc. The fact that they are choosing to fly on bigger aircraft and on the competition is the reason the rj's will slowly reduce in numbers.....not because a mainline or DCI pilot is flying them.

Lose the chip, most of us were flying for regionals and such before getting "the last job we will ever have". I know it makes many feel better to play the victim, but we are not all out to "get you rj guys". People don't like the rj's anymore, period (unless it serves as their only flight out of their little towns, in wich case they are fortunate to have air service). We either change or die. Simple.

 

[sweptback]

I guess that's why all the mainline airplanes got pullled out of DFW and there will only be RJs flying out of there now. OOPPs, I got that wrong.

JMO, but it would seem that with over 200 RJ departures out of DFW those self financing, super profitable RJs should have beat up on AA.

You Delta guys all forget that Delta launched a full-on attack of AA in DFW (with mainline of course) in the early 90s. That didn't work either, and doomed Delta to be a sorry shell of a third-class player in the D/FW market.

If Delta really saw the writing on the wall, they would have pulled out of DFW back then and either deployed their assets in a more profitable area, or found a different hub to try. But there's something to be said about hindsight being 20/20 and Monday-morning quarterbacking and all.

It has been said before, but it doesn't hurt to repeat it again: DCI was a last-ditch effort in Dallas after mainline had already failed. Guess what, DCI failed too. It's funny how guys I fly with daily (well, 20-21 days monthly) that are affected by this seem to accept it better than these few Delta guys that like to stir up trouble on this board, yet are affected very little by it.

 

[Heavy Set]

In an ideal world my job is to feed passengers to mainline aircraft. Also, intiate service to new cities that hopefully will later support a mainline aircraft. Our RJ's were never the long term answer and obviously not the short term with regard to DFW.
But, I don't want to read people complaining when they do not want to pay a fair price to travel. More people are traveling but they are not paying fares that support the system.
If mainline doesn't grow we are all in a world of hurt! It shouldn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out!! Cheers, Wil

Good post. Look, 50-seat RJs should be used on routes that don't compete with larger, low-cost carrier aircraft. That should be a rule because many passengers would prefer the larger aircraft and the economics don't work as well for the 50-seater (can't spread the costs very well over 50 seats and make a profit with low fares for each seat). I am talking about LCC competitive routes - not thinner routes with no competition.

The introduction of more 70-100 seaters should be a priority. Clearly, from a passenger comfort standpoint, the CRJ-700 is not much of an improvement over the CRJ-200 and the ultra-narrow ERJ. I am hopeful that more airlines order the EMB-170/190 or whatever new aircraft Bombardier develops to compete with it. Passenger comfort means wider cabins, more seat room and better bin space. I agree that JetBlue will probably do very well with the EMB-190 (of course they will - pilot costs will be very low...). Let's hope Delta orders the EMB-190 as well very soon.

 

[73belair]

Whould all this be going on if we all still flew turbo props? People HATED the Brasilia, but it was a connecting airplane. It never tried to be anything but that. Just because the RJ can go 3-4 hrs doesn't mean it should. I fly it and I wouldn't want to sit in the back of that thing that long. I flew the Brasilia before that and watched people's faces when they got on. Longing to be on one of those "jets". Now I'm on the RJ and have seen people look at the RJ the same way.
Its all about the preception that people have. They would rather be on a 30 year old 737 than a 2 year old RJ. They don't know the difference. They see small and think its bad.
That e170/190 will kick some ass. Doesn't look small to the pax.

 

[metrodriver]

Delta's problem out of DFW seemed to be a scheduling problem, especially on west coast flights. Several times a day out of DFW, including late evening yet the last flight leaving some west coast cities was at noon time! So if you have to conduct business in the morning you got to leave the meeting at ten to make your departure, or have to stay another night and waste half a day flying back to DFW. No wonder everybody was coming back on AA and DL was flying half empty.

What is DL costing dearly now are their cheaper-than-SWA fares on Song. Oh yeah, the planes are probably full, but if SWA is barely making a profit with their fares how can DL do that with a lot lower utilization of the (more expensive) 757?

 

[RJFlyer]

The animosity is comming from pax who can either fly on an rj or a A320, B717, B777 etc, etc. The fact that they are choosing to fly on bigger aircraft ...
...People don't like the rj's anymore, period (unless it serves as their only flight out of their little towns, in wich case they are fortunate to have air service).

As has been pointed out many times, people will fly on the airline that gets them to Grandma's house the cheapest - THEY DO NOT FLY BASED ON WHAT AIRPLANE SERVES THE ROUTE. I have commuted on an MD-88 and passengers got on saying "what a small airplane!" Has anyone ridden on Southwest? Not exactly the paragon of comfort and convenience, yet people will stand in lines that stretch to the next terminal and wait in line to fight for their window seat just to save $10 bucks over Delta or American or whoever.

To the average passenger the aircraft doesn't matter, only the price does.

 

[climbhappy]

Why do all these industry consultants think that the end of the RJ revolution is about to happen?.

 

[bvt1151]

Why do all these industry consultants think that the end of the RJ revolution is about to happen?.

Aren't these the same ones who said it would never begin?

And no, not all of the industry consultants think that. I think you're confusing Boyde with those who research for reasons other than just to see how many times they can read their name in the paper.

Whoever started this thread has no clue what the RJDC is doing. This would fit in the "propaganda" file.

 

[michael707767]

Its all about the preception that people have. They would rather be on a 30 year old 737 than a 2 year old RJ. They don't know the difference. They see small and think its bad.
That e170/190 will kick some ass. Doesn't look small to the pax.

This is exactly correct. I don't think the comfort level of an RJ is that different. I dont like it, but I am fairly tall. However, when I walk on an RJ, I see small and I immediately think it will be less comfortable. Perception is reality folks, and the perception (though not fact) is that an RJ is less comfortable.

 

[higherflyer]

We all know that an RJ on a 3-4 hour flight is NOT comfortable for any passenger.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Not that comfortable for the folks in the very front seats either! After working a couple of those 3 hour flights, I realized that while the manufacturers may have made the planes with the range for the 3 hour flights, evolution only gave me a 2 hour a$$.

 

[FN FAL]

I find it funny how aweful these airplanes supposedly are, how the passengers hate them, how high there CASM is, blah blah blah, yet the number of registered RJ's keeps climbing year after year.

Perhaps the General (who obviously despises the RJ) could educate me as to why the number of RJ's continue to skyrocket when everyone seems to hate them so much. As much as you and I wish they would go away, face it: They're not going away anytime soon.

Deal with it!

Seems to me, another industry that dictated to the customer that it should like it's products, found itself reeling from the backlash...the US automotive industry.

 

[skydiverdriver]

What does this article have to do with the RJDC? Again, someone showing their ignorance of what the RJDC is doing, and why they are suing ALPA. I would explain it again, but you won't believe me or even listen to me, so why bother. And, you didn't even make an effort to tie the RJDC in with what you were talking about.


On another note, I have noticed a lot of people actually like rj's. They like the fact that they can get out of them faster, and they are quieter than many mainline aircraft. I see so many people get on and say, "this is a little plane." Then when they get off, they say, "this is nice, what kind of a plane is this?" Yes, passengers are ignorant on many aspects of our job, but I think they are given wrong ideas by the media. Just watch the new show "LAX", and you will know what I mean.

 

[Headfake14]

No one likes being in a seat for long hours. So...what makes time go by? Entertainment. How about installing satellite radio in our RJs and even that big sexy ATR. Yes I know...it'll add wt., something new for catering to run out of (head sets). But it would make things more attractive for our pax.

Just an idea

I thought I heard that Airtran was putting in Sirius.

 

[FN FAL]

On another note, I have noticed a lot of people actually like rj's. They like the fact that they can get out of them faster...

Imagine that...they can't get out of an RJ fast enough?

 

[DrunkIrishman]

Apparently, ASA's passengers are complaining about being bored rather than cramped on those long 3+ hour flights.

For those of you who want to complain about rj's not being the right equipment for a route I would remind you that the customers can vote with their feet. It seems as though they are still flying with DL. Until that changes, there is no legitimacy to the rj being too small.

And yes, I too have passengers comment on how small my rj is as well as that MD-88 is that I commuted on earlier that day! I guess that the MD-88 ought to be included in the "shouldn't fly longer than 2 hours" debate.