Why the H is ALPA Advocating MPL Licensing?!

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I like both... books and experience....

 

[Dornier 335]

Ask Lufthansa how it works.

LH doesn't have MPL officially as far as I know. They have ab-initio. Not sure what the difference is, but looking at the HAM incident, there's room for decision-making improvement.

 

[Mamma]

In order to do what you are talking about, 55,000 Air Line Pilots have to be ready to demonstrate.

If you want Prater or the President of ALPA to charge out of the foxhole (Today Show), then there needs to be an army of Air Line Pilots charging behind him.

Do you think Air Line Pilots are ready to do that?

In addition, what you are asking for is pay raises, better work rules, retirement... etc... basically economic. Is safety really an issue? Colgan pointed out flaws, but also, until Colgan, the safety record had been unbeatable. The best year in history.

What Air Line Pilots have done as professionals, is agreed to via democratic vote, concessionary CBAs during the BK era, all while making the NAS the safest it has ever been.

So what is the Today Show message?

Once again you are proving my point. You would rather ALPA just sit back and be reactionary than exude some leadership and force the change the membership wants. If you are fuzzy on this, ALPA is a professional pilot union that the American public will listen to. As I understand it, our membership was not in favor of age 65 so Prater could have had the integrity to do what the membership wanted...yes, unite the troops and charge out of the foxhole on the View, Today Show, O'Reilly Factor, Olbermann and so on. Some well placed commercials and billboards maybe. He could have used our outstanding safety record as a reason to keep age 60 where it was. He could have used quotes from the previous FAA Surgeons General. You see. You would rather have ALPA sit back and let things happen with some input to the process rather than leading the direction of the charge. ALPA could have forced the age 65 change in parts; come up with a physiological study on the aptitude of age 65 pilots and a host of other things but they chose to placate the senior pilots and dismiss the wishes of the rest of the membership.

As far as age 65 and I go, I am over it. What I am not over is guys like you who always whine about membership not doing anything to better the profession and then turn around and defend ALPA for doing nothing but caving to a minority of senior pilots and a politician like Oberstarr.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

My understanding was Ab-Initio and MPL were the same thing. I think the foreign ab-initio programs use MPL style-training to train their pilots. I know that Boeing was advocating thisw MPL training to train the new ab-initio pilots that will be needed as aviation expands, and the ever-lowering numbers of pilots and pilot starts show that the old system in the US of training pilots is not working too well.

cliff
NBO

 

[8v8ter]

LH doesn't have MPL officially as far as I know. They have ab-initio. Not sure what the difference is, but looking at the HAM incident, there's room for decision-making improvement.

That is incorrect. A 22 year old girl, who is a family friend, is in the Lufthansa program right now. She has just finished 10 months +/- of ground school and took the ATPL written over a period of 3 days. She will then go to Goodyear AZ for 4 months of aircraft training in a Bonanza ONLY, no multiengine. She will get a Private Pilot lic., but that is only because LH is being nice. When they actually have a line flying position for her, which could take a year or two depending on the industry recovery, they will finish the MPL in Sims and around 10 hours in a Citation. Then a type in an Airbus and she's in the right seat making more than I did my second year at a major with 10000 hours+. She did say her group that started a year ago were the first to "experiment" with the MPL.

 

[Dornier 335]

Cliff,

I don't think those two are the same from a legal point of view. MPL is a fairly new standard, LH has done the ab-initio for many many years. Maybe the difference doesn't matter at all when we look at the LH cross-wind landing in HAM.

LH and Swiss are the only airlines that are using ab-initio programs in Europe.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

You aren't even on the map.....


here we go....

Once again you are proving my point. You would rather ALPA just sit back and be reactionary than exude some leadership and force the change the membership wants.

Perhaps you didn't read my post.... The point is... are you and most of your fellow pilots ready to charge out of the foxhole with ALPA? I say no.

Should the leadership rally the troops? Sure... did the right leader get elected to really the troops? Well ask your LEC officers... Who are they? Who voted for them?

As a mature adult professional do you need to be rallied by the leader? Are you smart enough to start a grassroots movement? Are you tired of ALPAs BS? Can you self motivate and initiate?

If you are fuzzy on this, ALPA is a professional pilot union that the American public will listen to. As I understand it, our membership was not in favor of age 65 so Prater could have had the integrity to do what the membership wanted...yes, unite the troops and charge out of the foxhole on the View, Today Show, O'Reilly Factor, Olbermann and so on.

Zero congressmen voted against it! What are you talking about?

Also, our the majority of our membership didn't care.. the majority of the minority did not want the change...

However, with zero congressmen voting against Age 65.. what did you want ALPA to do?

Some well placed commercials and billboards maybe. He could have used our outstanding safety record as a reason to keep age 60 where it was. He could have used quotes from the previous FAA Surgeons General. You see. You would rather have ALPA sit back and let things happen with some input to the process rather than leading the direction of the charge. ALPA could have forced the age 65 change in parts; come up with a physiological study on the aptitude of age 65 pilots and a host of other things but they chose to placate the senior pilots and dismiss the wishes of the rest of the membership.

Zero congressmen wanted age 60.

As far as age 65 and I go, I am over it. What I am not over is guys like you who always whine about membership not doing anything to better the profession and then turn around and defend ALPA for doing nothing but caving to a minority of senior pilots and a politician like Oberstarr.

All right.... then justify the membership not doing anything... tell me that your apathy, indiffernce and emnity is a sound course of action for your career....

 

[Dornier 335]

That is incorrect. A 22 year old girl, who is a family friend, is in the Lufthansa program right now. She has just finished 10 months +/- of ground school and took the ATPL written over a period of 3 days. She will then go to Goodyear AZ for 4 months of aircraft training in a Bonanza ONLY, no multiengine. She will get a Private Pilot lic., but that is only because LH is being nice. When they actually have a line flying position for her, which could take a year or two depending on the industry recovery, they will finish the MPL in Sims and around 10 hours in a Citation. Then a type in an Airbus and she's in the right seat making more than I did my second year at a major with 10000 hours+. She did say her group that started a year ago were the first to "experiment" with the MPL.

I am somewhat familiar with the LH training. Don't hold your breath, you're obviously neither familiar with German tax rate nor do you know for how many years she'll have to pay back her loan. I'll bet she sees less €€€ than you see your $$$ at the end of the month. Ask her, how much the loan is if you feel brave...

What makes it really hypocritical is that all the LH pilots will tell how nice it is and that's the best airline in the world and blablabla but scratching the surface a bit I see as many grievances, bickerings etc. as over here at the US legacy carriers.

Is their training really the best as they claim? Maybe when it comes to cool-aid drinking. The HAM incident just shows some poor decision making, not sure about the causes with the hard landing with the MD-11 in MEX.

You wrote that she'll finish with her MPL. Well, that license will ONLY be good for LH, meaning that it'll be very difficult to make a move to a different carrier if she choses to.

 

[Mamma]

Rez,
Arguing with you is like masturbating with a cheese grater. While it may be mildly amusing, it is mostly painful. I could talk till I'm blue in the face but you will keep marching in your own direction. That is fine. I don't think you are getting my point: I don't buy the argument from the world's largest professional pilot union that we are powerless to stop legislation that negatively impacts our careers and safety. The issue here is MPL not age 65. I gave you examples of what could have been done with age 65 if we had effective leadership that rallied the troops. It was just an example to show that we don't have to roll over like beaten dogs every time. If Prater comes out again saying "Well, there is nothing we can do about MPL so let's just roll with it" I think I will puke. Last, get off your high horse and quit being such an ALPA snob. You have no idea what I did or did not do so leave your apathy and indifference remarks at the door. Thanks.

 

[8v8ter]

I am somewhat familiar with the LH training. Don't hold your breath, you're obviously neither familiar with German tax rate nor do you know for how many years she'll have to pay back her loan. I'll bet she sees less €€€ than you see your $$$ at the end of the month. Ask her, how much the loan is if you feel brave...

What makes it really hypocritical is that all the LH pilots will tell how nice it is and that's the best airline in the world and blablabla but scratching the surface a bit I see as many grievances, bickerings etc. as over here at the US legacy carriers.

Is their training really the best as they claim? Maybe when it comes to cool-aid drinking. The HAM incident just shows some poor decision making, not sure about the causes with the hard landing with the MD-11 in MEX.

You wrote that she'll finish with her MPL. Well, that license will ONLY be good for LH, meaning that it'll be very difficult to make a move to a different carrier if she choses to.

You are correct in that I didn't ask how much the training contract is for, but I do know she will have to pay it back monthly. And yes, I believe German taxes are in the 45-50%+ range. All she will be able to do with the MPL is fly the Airbus for only LH, I'm pretty sure it's useless for anything else. Now the question is, if LH goes under in 5 years (fat chance), she will have a few thousand hours in Airbii etc, but would she have to retake all the commercial and ATP training to have a viable certificate and a career elsewhere? Oh and yes of course she is very full of the Kool-aid right now, but so would I be if were in her shoes. What is the atmosphere at LH?