Why Shouldn't I PFT!

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T quals

Also, it is widely agreed upon, moral issues and personal feelings asside, some PFT pilots are good sticks. How are these guys unqualified?

They may meet FAA regulatory qualifications to be in the right seat of an airline cockpit, but they may not meet some of the experience and most of the longevity requirements to be airline pilots. There are plenty of people who are great pilots, but they have not been around long enough to be good airline pilots.

I will not bring up P-F-T companies where they are put into the right seat at 250 hours or 500 hours thereafter, and let's not compare them to foreign airline training. As you are well aware, foreign airlines place many 300-hour pilots in right seats of DC-9s and 737s. However, these pilots have been hand-picked to become pilots and receive extremely high-quality, intense training from their company school and/or a high-quality contractor. Not a moment is wasted. Compare it to military pilot training. These folks are extremely well-prepared to be airline pilots at 300 hours. Not the same as P-F-Ters.

 

[wheelsup]

This guy bought 800 hours of time and has instructed just 200 hours or so. I've built almost 300 hrs in the last 5 months instructing at 2 jobs - on in NJ and one in FL. It seems his lack of patience is what is killing his chances! He doesn't seem very serious in finding flight jobs.

Might be mean but I see it as one less person in line for my next job.

~wheelsup

 

[vossdr1]

pft

Los,
If you've got any inclination for corporate aviation and you have money burning a hole in your pocket-get your Airframe and Powerplant Cert. (instruct while doing it). After you build some hours instructing, you'll be a shoe-in for a sweet corporate job.

If you don't want that, go to a part 141 flight school where they have more students than they can accommodate (like some university programs). You can build 800-1000 hours instructing in a year at some programs. It's not PFT, and it can be a living- not just subsistence.

Get a Citation type from all ATPs and make contacts with corporate types who have citations-they may need a co-pilot in a pinch.

I know a CFI who started his own aerial advertising company. He got investors, bought a plane, has clients, and is about to start making money.

There is a lot you can do without pft. "Think outside of the box."

Where do you live? Maybe move someplace where aviation is more abundant-more opportunities exist where there is more activity.

The bottom line is that you're going to pay one way or another. You should keep your money and get valuable experience along the way. Who knows, you might make a way for the next guy-so he won't have to pft.

Do you really think you are the only person who finds advancement in this profession intolerable? Don't forget, others have been exactly where you are and they made it without pft.
If you take the easy way, you'll never know what you can do.

Remember, if being an aviator was easy-there'd be no doctors or lawyers.

 

[enigma]

Hey enigma, I got a question for you,

how can you say that the many pilots that PFT'd in the 90's, ALL were unqualified? Many that PFT'd had several thousand hours. Some more than you, I'm sure. Just a question about what you are stating, not a PFT question. Also, it is widely agreed upon, moral issues and personal feelings asside, some PFT pilots are good sticks. How are these guys unqualified?

Hey blade, quote what I said so that I can comment on the exact wording that you refer to.

BTW, I've been pretty careful with my words, make sure that you are reading what I wrote, not what you think I wrote.

Another BTW, some may have had more time than I, that could be so. But, if so, why was I able to get a Lear corporate job in a company in which I had no contacts, based upon my qualification and experience at a time when the PFT'rs were having to buy a seat in a Beech 1900? Enquiring minds want to know.

enigma

 

[blade230]

I was refering to what I thought was you implying that all PFTers were unqualified, (Moral personal beliefs asside, this is just pure pilot skill related)

If am incorrect in my interpertation of what you wrote, I apologise.
With regards to the 1900 comment, I was not talking about gulfstream. In my previous post, I was talking about every other airline that was PFT during that time frame (90's). Which was many regioanal airlines as even Bobbysamd would agree.

PFT personal feelings asside, some guys that PFT'd at that time, and today at gulfstream, are far from unqualified. Even though what they have done may not sit well with you, or other PFT haters on a personal basis, SOME of these PFTers are indeed qualified to hold whatever job they landed/bought/whatever.

 

[bobbysamd]

Pre-Mesa Air Midwest P-F-T

In my previous post, I was talking about every other airline that was PFT during that time frame (90's). Which was many regioanal airlines as even Bobbysamd would agree.

I do agree, especially in the early '90s, which remains my primary frame of reference (though I continue to be amazed that little really has changed since that time). I don't remember them all; the one I do remember was at Air Midwest before Mesa bought it. Around 1990, a pilot magazine featured an article about a stockbroker with about 600 hours who wanted to change careers. Air Midwest had some P-F-T program which sent P-F-Ters to FlightSafety for their training. The thing I remember the most about the article is how the guy completed training but had to wait forever before he went to the line.

At about the same time, Kit's rag, Career Pilot, ran a feature about P-F-T. I recall the article setting forth how P-F-T was becoming increasingly prevalent. At that point I drew the conclusion that flying remained a rich man's game. Unfortunately, after fourteen years I cannot recall the names of the airlines.

 

[enigma]

I was refering to what I thought was you implying that all PFTers were unqualified, (Moral personal beliefs asside, this is just pure pilot skill related)

I never came close to saying that all PFT'rs were unqualified. However, I will say that most, according to my experience in the business, were not even close to the most qualified. For the ones who were hired in at 1000 and 200 by companies such as Continental Express (the 1900 comment refered to COEX), they were not qualified. Period. I'll go on record as saying that a 1000hour cessna pilot with 200 in a Seminole is not qualified to fly my family around. I know from where I speak. I WAS a 1000 hour Cherokee pilot with 300 in an old Apache when I was hired by MESA to be a B1300 (marketing name for the B200HDC) FO. I was more trouble than I was worth for at least 500 hours. I just didn't have enough time in command to have learned to make decisions. I hadn't seen enough, I hadn't scared myself enough. Luckily, I had scared myself a few times, and my training, along with my desire to live took those experiences and melded them into a pretty decent pilot. But, I will say again that 1000/200(the level that COEX called "qualified" for PFT) was not qualified to fly paying passengers. That IS my opinion.

If am incorrect in my interpertation of what you wrote, I apologise.
With regards to the 1900 comment, I was not talking about gulfstream. In my previous post, I was talking about every other airline that was PFT during that time frame (90's). Which was many regioanal airlines as even Bobbysamd would agree.

PFT personal feelings asside, some guys that PFT'd at that time, and today at gulfstream, are far from unqualified. Even though what they have done may not sit well with you, or other PFT haters on a personal basis, SOME of these PFTers are indeed qualified to hold whatever job they landed/bought/whatever.

Sorry to be quarrelsome, but I have to ask again, IF they were qualified, why did they BUY the job??????????????

enigma

 

[46Driver]

Because the definition of "Qualified" is not a constant but rather moves up and down depending on the supply of pilots.

Also, the company determines whether or not you are "qualified". ACA, ASA, and Comair said I was "qualified" with my helo time but Eagle, AirNet and some others said I was "not qualified." Its a moving target.

 

[350DRIVER]

enigma,

With all due respect I must completely disagree with what you are saying here. You cannot sit here and say these guys are "not qualified" due to "flight times". Whether or not they are 300 hour San Juan grads going into the RJ or 2000 hour instructors being hired off of the streets really is not overly relevant since they still must pass indoc, systems, sim, oral, checkride, ioe, etc, etc,.. If these guys are "not qualified" by this point in the game then they will wash out, bottom line.. I know of no instructor, training captain that will let someone sneak through the cracks that should not be there in the first place. I have flown with some lower time guys that were safer and better than guys with four times their flight time. Flight time is not always the key variable in the equation, "experience" and "background" is much more important in my opinion. Anyone can spend a few days pencil whipping a logbook but that is not going to help them in the sim/aircraft.. Rest assured if someone slips through the interviewthat should not they will not continue to sneak by once all the fun and games come to a halting stop when they step foot into the sim.


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[bobbysamd]

P-F-T for qualified pilots

I have to ask again, IF they were qualified, why did they BUY the job??????????????

That was one big reason why I did not P-F-T; the main one being that one does not buy a job, in any field. By 1990-'91, I had met every qualification on paper for the majority of commuters, but was not getting hired. I had some interviews, but my interview return was low compared to my paper output. P-F-T would have gotten me in. I refused to be degraded by paying for a job for which I was qualified.

Originally posted by 46driver
[T]he definition of "Qualified" is not a constant but rather moves up and down depending on the supply of pilots.

Also, the company determines whether or not you are "qualified" . . . . Its a moving target.

Very true comments. Just wait until hiring improves. We will have a flurry of posts from low-timers whining that they don't have 100 hours of multi for XYZ airline. I can remember that if you were toast if you didn't have 500 or more of multi, ad infinitum.