"Why Pilots Should Make $200,000 aYear" essay thing

[pilotyip]

Rez O again you and all your airline buddies who feel you are grossly underpaid should get together and start your own airline, set your own wages, and be done with all this bad management stuff. You paid the profession what I really deserve and become the shinning light in a dark picture to restore teh prestige and glory to the airline profession. I wish you the best, but that is one of the only ways you will break the law of supply and demand. Remember the highest paid passenger pilots work for the only consistent profitable airline out there, so have great example to follow.

 

[A Squared]

A squared- your supply and demand sounds fair...

How does that apply to organized labor at airlines. There are no Micheal Jordon's when flying airplanes. Either you are qualified and have the right attitude andpersonality to get hired or you don't.

There are no Derek Jeters that can command more pay for the same work as other short stops....

True, the laws of supply and demand are still at work, but to a lesser degree.

As you point out, pilots are widgets. In economic-speak, that means a comodity with no quality differentiation. If you hold an ATP and can pass a checkride every 6 months, in a lot of respects, you're just as good as any other airline pilot. There may be large differences in skill, but despite that, everone meeting the minimum qualifications is on about the same footing.

However, supply and demand is a free market phenomenon. the further and further you get from a free market the weaker the law of supply and demand. At the extreme, in a completely planned market (read socialist) , the law of supply and demand is pretty much nil.

Things like collective bargaining, contracts, and labor legislation like the railway labor act tend to move the labor market away from a pure free market, toward a socialist market. In this way the supply/demand effect is lessened. However, having said that, the Unions do work with the laws of supply and demand. One of the primary functions of a union is to artificially limit the supply of labor in a particulat labor market. The union does this in varous ways, legislation allowing union membership to be required is one way. Another way is by perpetuating the whole "scab" concept. By intimidating people by threats of blackballing, ostracization, harrasment or even bodily harm, the union is using social pressure to limit a company's free access to all potential sources of labor.

Whatever your thoughts are on the scab issue, that is what is going on; limiting the supply of labor to a particular labor market to make that labor market more favorable to the laborer through the laws of supply and demand.

Let's say that there was no railway labor act, that airlines were not bound to contracts, and there is no social stigma attatched to being a scab. The unions would have lost almost all of thier power to limit the supply of pilot labor to an airline. Tha airlines would have a much freer access to the the pilot populations at large. If the union (if it even existed) wasn't happy and threatened a strike, so what? it would be an inconvenience as there would be some training costs associated with replacing the striking workers, but after all the new hires (who without the social stigme associated with being a scab would be lining up in droves) were on line, life would go on at the airline. With that sort of unlimited access to the pilot labor pool, I think you'd find pilot compensation would tend to be much lower.

 

[ReverseSensing]

I don't begrudge anyone a salary commensurate with their experience or seniority, as long as the company/airline that they fly for is financially capable of paying that salary.

Well, therein lies the rub: without some sort of collective bargaining arrangement, guess who solely gets to decide whether the company is "financially capable" of paying the salary that you feel is deserved? That's right: management.

Someone will pipe up and suggest that you can always take your skills elsewhere if you don't think the compensation is adequate. But as has been asserted repeatedly, there's always another pilot waiting in the wings to take the job you refused on principle.

In this industry, most (not all) management is operating on the commodity theory of pilot services, and it seems that lately, there is a lot of collusion (i.e. whipsaw, bankruptcy) to drive that commodity market lower.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez O again you and all your airline buddies who feel you are grossly underpaid should get together and start your own airline, set your own wages, and be done with all this bad management stuff. You paid the profession what I really deserve and become the shinning light in a dark picture to restore teh prestige and glory to the airline profession. I wish you the best, but that is one of the only ways you will break the law of supply and demand. Remember the highest paid passenger pilots work for the only consistent profitable airline out there, so have great example to follow.

The FO I flew with last week is on food stamps. I know, somehow it is his fault.

I don't want to start an airline...just looking for good management. Can we clone Herb?

 

[pilotyip]

Rez O when your F/O gets his 1200 TT he is eligle for 135 IFR PIC, there are many jobs he could apply for that pay more that regional F/O wages, he most likely would have to move, where a pager and give up quality of life. He would start logging PIC and increase his chances of moving to a better paying job.

 

[ReverseSensing]

A Squared:

Honest question: Do you fly for Evert's? Is the bulk of Evert's business bypass mail? Considering your free market ideology, do you have any heartburn about how far from the free market system the whole bypass mail arrangement is.

Not flame! Coming from a guy who was always a little irritated by hauling a triple mailer of pop from Bethel to Scammon or Hooper or Platinum with a $10 postal meter strip on it, knowing my company alone was being paid about $60 bucks to deliver it.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

A Squared- Thanks for the reply.

While the scab application has some merit, I believe the Collective Bargaining Agreement (CBA) is a more powerful example.

The CBA in itself limits the supply and demand. For example, if there was a pilot that was a independently wealthy that would work for min wage, just cause he loves to fly...he could not. The CBA forces him to work at a higher rate. The rate is determined thru negotiation based on the companies revenue/profit. The rate is not determined by the number of pilots willing to work for min wage.

Therefore suppy and demand are limiting factors to a pilots wage. The CBA forms an artificial "environment". Which is good.

Your thoughts?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez O when your F/O gets his 1200 TT he is eligle for 135 IFR PIC, there are many jobs he could apply for that pay more that regional F/O wages, he most likely would have to move, where a pager and give up quality of life. He would start logging PIC and increase his chances of moving to a better paying job.

Can't move. He just had a baby and his wife needs her families support. Plus he needs the travel bennies to visit his family overseas...

I know, he shouldn't have had a baby. What was he thinking!!

 

[Purpledog]

"Pilots only impress 2 groups of people, small children and each other."

I think it's only kids because they certainly don't impress me. This thread is a good example why. I should have become a doctor like my brother. His job is much easier than mine, he attained his goal long before I did, has incredible job security, sees his family most nights, and makes triple my salary. Furthermore, he doesn't have idiot colleagues telling his patients he deserves less. Our own worst enemy.............

 

[pilotyip]

Should never start a family until you have the income to support it.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Should never start a family until you have the income to support it.

Let's question the gift of life! Your parents did (not)!

It is not his fifth child..... it is his first....

 

[A Squared]

A Squared- Thanks for the reply.

While the scab application has some merit, I believe the Collective Bargaining Agreement (CBA) is a more powerful example.

The CBA in itself limits the supply and demand. For example, if there was a pilot that was a independently wealthy that would work for min wage, just cause he loves to fly...he could not. The CBA forces him to work at a higher rate. The rate is determined thru negotiation based on the companies revenue/profit. The rate is not determined by the number of pilots willing to work for min wage.

Therefore suppy and demand are limiting factors to a pilots wage. The CBA forms an artificial "environment". Which is good.

Your thoughts?

Agree, the CBA is one way in which that particular labor market is shifted away from being a free market economy and toward being a planned economy.

Now, I'm generally a free market advocate, to a degree, but, I also recognize that a in a completely unfettered free market, companies will act to the detriment of society, so there needs to be some limits. Anti-trust legislation, unions, labor laws etc are all ways that some of the excesses of a completely free market are checked.

Now, I have never said that pilots *should not* make $200K, not in the slightest. If you can negotiate that, more power to you, and as long as the money to pay your salary isn't taken from me by threat of prison, (ie: taxes) I have no reason to care if you're making $200K. I've always said more power to you, if that's what you can negotiate.

However as soon as somone starts beliving that they are *owed* $200k thourough some misplaced sense of entitlement, I disagree.

I don't object to pilots making $200K, I object to pilots saying they are *owed* $200K. I think that distinction may be lost on many here.

 

[A Squared]

A Squared:

Honest question: Do you fly for Evert's? Is the bulk of Evert's business bypass mail? Considering your free market ideology, do you have any heartburn about how far from the free market system the whole bypass mail arrangement is.

Not flame! Coming from a guy who was always a little irritated by hauling a triple mailer of pop from Bethel to Scammon or Hooper or Platinum with a $10 postal meter strip on it, knowing my company alone was being paid about $60 bucks to deliver it.

Hahahah, Busted!!!!!

Fair question. Here's my thoughts. Yeah, like you, I don't think it's right that a few carriers have the exclusive enjoyment of a highly subsidized market. I thnk it's ridiculous that the Post office has to jack up postage rates in the lower 48 so that it can pay $70 bucks to ship soda pop from Anchorage to Scammon bay but only charge charge $10 bucks for the service. It leads to just that sort of ridiculous situation, shipping tons and tons of soda-pop by air mail, when with a little planning, it could be shipped by barge. You can bet that if the customer was paying the full fare, suddenly the Scammon Bay Co-op would start planning far enough in advance that the soda, bottled water, canned goods and other non-perisables would be shipped by barge.
ANyway, you asked a pointed question about me. Yes, obviously I am benefitting from this situation. I figure that as long as it's in place, someone will benefit, and it might as well be me. Some might argue that I should quit as a matter of principal. perhaps. I probably won't though. By the same token, If I were at a major Airline, I would be quite content to get the $200k (or whatever) paycheck. Remember, I don't object to pilots being paid $200k, I object to pilots believing they are *owed* $200k. Yes the bypass mail system is benefitting me, but you won't hear me defending it because I think the postal rate payers in the lower 48 *owe* me a job. If it goes away, maybe my company will be clever enough to react in a way that I still have a job, maybe not. Maybe I'll have to find another job. It might be tough, but I don't believe that a system of subsidies should be preserved merely because it provides me economic comfort.

 

[Bumpman]

I am so fortunate to be a member of a professional community that has so many members that are so richly blessed with imminent wisdom. I hope that when I grow up, I can be that smart. You guys really crack me up.

 

[ReverseSensing]

I am so fortunate to be a member of a professional community that has so many members that are so richly blessed with imminent wisdom. I hope that when I grow up, I can be that smart. You guys really crack me up.

It is certainly your prerogative to agree or disagree, and make your case or not. But sarcastically taking all your marbles and going home with one final jab at the "big dummies" who thought you wanted a debate is beneath you (I assume). Honestly, I would have expected more from someone with your extensive industry experience.