"Why Pilots Should Make $200,000 aYear" essay thing

[A Squared]

Too many examples of well-compensated professions where there's no shortage of supply: lawyers, stockbrokers, professional athletes, etc.

No, there is a shortage of supply. Ball players attorneys and stockbrokers are not widgets, there's a quality issue.

There may be a bazillion young punks who want to play basketball for a living, however there are d@mned few who are actually able to play as well as Michael Jordan. So the very few who are actually able to run with the big dogs pull down a big paycheck. That is supply and demand in it's most basic form.

Basketball players who can play at that level are one comodity, and it is in short supply.

Basketball players who *can't* play at that level are a completely different commodity.. There is *not* a shortage of supply of that commodity. SUbsequently, basketball players who aren't NBA quality do not make big bucks, you see them playing for peanuts in semi-pro leagues, either hoping it will lead to getting recruited to a higher level or just doing it because they like it. In either case they don't make the same amount of money as michael jordan because they are a different commodity, one that is not in short supply.

Again, supply and demand in it's most basic form.

Attorneys and stockbrokers are subject to the exact same laws of supply and demand, although the fields don't lend themselves easily to a very simple analysis like basketball. One of the differences which seperate those people into different commodities is quality (or perceived quality) of education. Sure there are plenty of MBAs, but a guy with an MBA from the local community college is a very different commodity than someone with an MBA from Wharton. Ditto Attorneys. If you are running a high dollar prestigious law firm who caters to the very wealthy and large prominient business (and bills accordingly), you don't care that there's thousands of guys with a law degree from a local college. You want to hire lawyers with degrees from prestigious law schools, and those are in a much shorter supply, so the price goes up.

Supply and demand. You can't get away from it.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

A squared- your supply and demand sounds fair...

How does that apply to organized labor at airlines. There are no Micheal Jordon's when flying airplanes. Either you are qualified and have the right attitude andpersonality to get hired or you don't.

There are no Derek Jeters that can command more pay for the same work as other short stops....

 

[Occam's Razor]

It is my humble opinion that the reason we have seen so many airline bankruptcies & failures is due to the greed expressed by ALPA.

Are you serious? ALPA is causing airlines to fail? You don't think it has anything to do with:

• the price of jet fuel
• competition spurned by manfacturers giving away aircraft to start-up airlines. (Airbus v. Boeing, Pratt v. GE v. Rolls)
• government buffoonery
• economic moodswings (Wanna kill an airline? Start a war!)
• inept managemnt dinks

What you're telling us is that pilots (in the form of ALPA) has asked too much from our poor managements. This has resulted in bankruptcy.

Am I reading that correctly?

The pilots at American (APA), Southwest (SWAPA), and other non-ALPA carriers have been smart enough not to demand more money, better work rules, and nicer benefits over that period?

Um....I ain't buyin' it.

Since deregulation, the industry has not been able to keep up with the pay scales that were established some 30 years ago.

Ok. Who "established" those rates 30-years ago? Was it..."satan"? Were those rates just plucked out of the ether, or were they a function of the realtive health of the industry and it's status in the economy? Have airline executives increased their own compensation packages in the past 30-years? Or is it just the pilots...excuse me....just ALPA pilots...oops!...just Duane Woerth?

Since deregulation, airlines have charged smaller fares and pilots have demanded higher salaries, in keeping with the demands that ALPA has placed on the carriers.

ALPA is stupid for demanding better pay for pilots?

Got it!

Perhaps we should index our pay to the fares our managements choose to charge?

SWA guys would looooooove that! Ditto JetBlue.

 

[XShipRider]

Two words...

Jet Blue (LA?)

Air France (Toronto)

United Airlines (Sioux City, IA)

Take your pick. I think you're grossly underpaid.

I like having a knowledgeable aircrew. It makes me feel like I have a chance
if anything catastrophic happens.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I don't begrudge anyone a salary commensurate with their experience or seniority, as long as the company/airline that they fly for is financially capable of paying that salary. It is my humble opinion that the reason we have seen so many airline bankruptcies & failures is due to the greed expressed by ALPA. Duane Woerth and Co. just want your pay rates to go up so that your ALPA dues will increase, and therefore increase their ALPA bureaucratic salaries. Since deregulation, the industry has not been able to keep up with the pay scales that were established some 30 years ago. Since deregulation, airlines have charged smaller fares and pilots have demanded higher salaries, in keeping with the demands that ALPA has placed on the carriers. I have been a military pilot, corporate pilot, and for the last 17 years, an airline pilot. I do this job because of my love for flying, not because I want to get rich at it. That ain't gonna happen. You young guys that think you are gonna get rich in this industry had better wake up and smell the coffee. This is a wonderful job with some pretty decent benefits. I get to fly a nice jet airplane from point A to point B with no boss hanging over my shoulder yelling in my ear. I am compensated pretty well for what I do, and I appreciate that. Rich-NO, Happy-YES, VERY.
Happy to be a member of ALPA-NO; but it is required if I want to stay employed; 5 more years for sure, my health staying good, 10 more years if Congress approves it.

If you don't expect TOO MUCH, then what you get will be great.

Please submit a short essay on Labor when applying to our companies Union Busting, er, I mean Labor Relations position.

Oh look you just did.....!

Of course we expect you to love the job, therefore don't expect much pay....

What many ALPA pilots don't know (becuase they don't take the time to learn) is that ALPA has an Economic and Financial Analysis Dept. It is second to none and many in house unions buy the EF&A services. For example the APA and SWAPA.

When a company wants paycuts from pilots, ALPA insists that the company hand over its books. Now, thru the EF&A, your pilot group can objectively understand your companies financial position. Now your negotiating committee can negotiate armed with real data, not doom and gloom form managment who don't care if you are on food stamps. The same applies when pilots are negotiating pay increases....

Kinda debunks your whole theory of....

It is my humble opinion that the reason we have seen so many airline bankruptcies & failures is due to the greed expressed by ALPA. Duane Woerth and Co. just want your pay rates to go up so that your ALPA dues will increase, and therefore increase their ALPA bureaucratic salaries.

I wouldn't even say it is humble.....rather ignorant actually. Please don't get me wrong. I am not saying you are ignorant..just misinformed. Or mis-believed

 

[pilotyip]

Rez O again you and all your airline buddies who feel you are grossly underpaid should get together and start your own airline, set your own wages, and be done with all this bad management stuff. You paid the profession what I really deserve and become the shinning light in a dark picture to restore teh prestige and glory to the airline profession. I wish you the best, but that is one of the only ways you will break the law of supply and demand. Remember the highest paid passenger pilots work for the only consistent profitable airline out there, so have great example to follow.

 

[A Squared]

A squared- your supply and demand sounds fair...

How does that apply to organized labor at airlines. There are no Micheal Jordon's when flying airplanes. Either you are qualified and have the right attitude andpersonality to get hired or you don't.

There are no Derek Jeters that can command more pay for the same work as other short stops....

True, the laws of supply and demand are still at work, but to a lesser degree.

As you point out, pilots are widgets. In economic-speak, that means a comodity with no quality differentiation. If you hold an ATP and can pass a checkride every 6 months, in a lot of respects, you're just as good as any other airline pilot. There may be large differences in skill, but despite that, everone meeting the minimum qualifications is on about the same footing.

However, supply and demand is a free market phenomenon. the further and further you get from a free market the weaker the law of supply and demand. At the extreme, in a completely planned market (read socialist) , the law of supply and demand is pretty much nil.

Things like collective bargaining, contracts, and labor legislation like the railway labor act tend to move the labor market away from a pure free market, toward a socialist market. In this way the supply/demand effect is lessened. However, having said that, the Unions do work with the laws of supply and demand. One of the primary functions of a union is to artificially limit the supply of labor in a particulat labor market. The union does this in varous ways, legislation allowing union membership to be required is one way. Another way is by perpetuating the whole "scab" concept. By intimidating people by threats of blackballing, ostracization, harrasment or even bodily harm, the union is using social pressure to limit a company's free access to all potential sources of labor.

Whatever your thoughts are on the scab issue, that is what is going on; limiting the supply of labor to a particular labor market to make that labor market more favorable to the laborer through the laws of supply and demand.

Let's say that there was no railway labor act, that airlines were not bound to contracts, and there is no social stigma attatched to being a scab. The unions would have lost almost all of thier power to limit the supply of pilot labor to an airline. Tha airlines would have a much freer access to the the pilot populations at large. If the union (if it even existed) wasn't happy and threatened a strike, so what? it would be an inconvenience as there would be some training costs associated with replacing the striking workers, but after all the new hires (who without the social stigme associated with being a scab would be lining up in droves) were on line, life would go on at the airline. With that sort of unlimited access to the pilot labor pool, I think you'd find pilot compensation would tend to be much lower.

 

[ReverseSensing]

I don't begrudge anyone a salary commensurate with their experience or seniority, as long as the company/airline that they fly for is financially capable of paying that salary.

Well, therein lies the rub: without some sort of collective bargaining arrangement, guess who solely gets to decide whether the company is "financially capable" of paying the salary that you feel is deserved? That's right: management.

Someone will pipe up and suggest that you can always take your skills elsewhere if you don't think the compensation is adequate. But as has been asserted repeatedly, there's always another pilot waiting in the wings to take the job you refused on principle.

In this industry, most (not all) management is operating on the commodity theory of pilot services, and it seems that lately, there is a lot of collusion (i.e. whipsaw, bankruptcy) to drive that commodity market lower.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez O again you and all your airline buddies who feel you are grossly underpaid should get together and start your own airline, set your own wages, and be done with all this bad management stuff. You paid the profession what I really deserve and become the shinning light in a dark picture to restore teh prestige and glory to the airline profession. I wish you the best, but that is one of the only ways you will break the law of supply and demand. Remember the highest paid passenger pilots work for the only consistent profitable airline out there, so have great example to follow.

The FO I flew with last week is on food stamps. I know, somehow it is his fault.

I don't want to start an airline...just looking for good management. Can we clone Herb?

 

[pilotyip]

Rez O when your F/O gets his 1200 TT he is eligle for 135 IFR PIC, there are many jobs he could apply for that pay more that regional F/O wages, he most likely would have to move, where a pager and give up quality of life. He would start logging PIC and increase his chances of moving to a better paying job.