Why is NetJets TA Unfair?

[netjetwife]

FAcFriend, how could our pilots go in to the office? They live scattered across the country. The ones that live nearby wouldn't even have to, considering that many are only AT HOME (as opposed to being away ) for 11 days a month. Here's what the AIN article had to say in their comparison of the two groups.

"But the salt in the wound is that what NetJets calls “industry-leading pilot pay” is barely half of the NBAA-reported salaries for those flying identical equipment in the corporate world. This despite the fact that fractional crews fly much more per month than typical corporate pilots and routinely have 14-hour duty days, in addition to being on the road for longer periods."

I can't access that info either, but I trust the pilots to know what they're talking about. Btw, that journal is usually pretty pro-management, my husband tells me, so their support of the NJ pilots strengths their case I think.

The NJ benefits seem to be in line w/other professional packages. It is the military retirement that has lost ground, so that is not the way to look at it. And the 2 are apples and oranges any way. As far as retirement goes, yes the 401K is what the pilots mention as well.

The parent/child analogy was used to lighten an often bleak subject; nonetheless, the narrow context in which it was used--fairness--is applicable. There ARE problems, legally and ethically, with a company not treating employees that perform the same duties, fairly. I hear the complaint often enough to believe that it will be an issue raised during negotiations.

Union advantage should not be undervalued. In the case of the pilots, undoubtly, there is strength in numbers. If not for the actions, allowed under UNION rules, 117 FOs would have no payraise in the near future. Pressing their case individually was not seen as a possibility to pilots that have to use the union's help to file a grievance when the company breaks the work rules. Furthermore, non-union workers have NO job protection. The lifestyle is so dufficult that job security should not have to be a concern to pilots that give up a lot to perform very demanding jobs for the company. My husband says that you might be able to find 5% of the pilots willing to go it on their own. The problems seen to date, are a result of poor leadership NOT the fact that the pilots are unionized. When reading the boards--pilots and wives--and talking to people, one hears much praise and confidence in the new leaders and in the unity of the pilot force, as a whole. That 82% that voted down the TA were also sending a message to the company regarding their new sense of purpose and determination. This is not just MY impression. It is a statement made over and over by the NJ pilots (and spouses) themselves.

Good luck to you and your family. Thanks for your interest.
Netjetwife

 

[gunfyter]

... Even our founding fathers understood separation of church and state. Bush does not, and that scares me.

Of course you are wrong about everything else you said but I really like that one.

What the founders understood about Church and State was that the STATE is to not interfere with the free exercise of Religion. Bush is right in line with the founders.

Separation of Church and State appears no where in the Constitution. Where does it come from? It comes from Baptist doctrine. Was discussed in letters between Thomas Jefferson and the Danbury Baptists who were worried about the State establishing official religions like in Europe.

Bush understands the church and state... Liberals do not.

"...We hold these truths to be self-evident: That all men are created equal;
that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. That, to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed; that, whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government,... " -- US Declaration

You do not want God in the White House.... However, this is where your rights come from. How will your rights be protected if God is absent? The Founders understood this... so does W.

 

[FAcFriend]

NJw
Quick question? What legal or ehtical problems arise from a company treating employees that perform the same job differently?

As long as it is not discrimination, religiously based, racially based, I do not think there are legal problems with this.

FF

 

[NJAowner]

Rich get richer

Aeroboy -- not getting into politics here but you say:

The rich will just get richer, while the poor get poorer. Welcome to the "new world order.

I find this a strange comment froma fractional/corporate pilot. It the "rich" have less, more of them will fly commercial, therefore the economy will need fewer corporate/fractional/charter pilots.

Then you go to work at Home Depot?


Be careful what you wish for.

Fly safe.

 

[rajflyboy]

Again I must say that this Contract is not all about Money.

Its about quality of life and also...... its about where you may or may not be able to live in the Future. Its about getting rid of harassment issues like the CVR Reviewing.

RCA's >> No way
CVR Reviewing >> No Way
3 am on the 8th day >> No way
show go with an airline on the first day >> No way
Signing Bonus should be pro rated by the Month

list goes on and on and on and on


When this stuff is fixed....Then We can talk about Money!!

 

[Indigo]

Class warfare

I find this a strange comment froma fractional/corporate pilot.

Definitely have to agree with you here. Many people like to bash the "rich" as if there is some sort of moral superiority to being "poor". But I realize that if it wasn't for the "rich" I would be out of a job.

 

[CatYaaak]

I think the biggest differences are that EJI is non-union, they lost money every year for the last 3 years, and they are paid much more than NJA unionized pilots.
There goes your theory that you have to be profitable to demand higher salaries. You just have to convince the CEO to rob the unionized folks to pay the non-union folks.

How come you guys/girls don't even know your own recent history? History is reason for the pay disparity and union/non-union manifestation of NJA vs. NJI and is quite simple....

When NJI (EJI) was started in the mid-90s, NJA (EJA) was aready in full-swing complete with it's PFT/traning contract/union dues-paying mess. MOST importantly, it was a WELL-KNOWN fact in the corporate world that the pay at NJA (EJA) sucked. The REASON is sucked was because by and large the pilots working there came from pre-RJ regional airline backgrounds flying Saabs and Brazilias for even LESS pay than was offered at EJA, and whored themselves out for a chance to fly jets and bolster their resume's for the major airlines, where they wished to return. Hiring at the majors was booming, and for them, EJA was merely a stepping-stone and a way to get ahead. The flying NJA (EJA) was doing suited them, hopping around domestically.

Now enter the desire to expand into international corporate-type ops using Gulfstreams. In the EJI (NJI) set-up deal, Gulfstream had a say in who was going to be operating their product, as do insurance companies in a globe-trotting environment. This requirement meant that the company needed extensive TIME-IN-TYPE, international ops experienced pilots right "out of the box". Where could they find that scope of exerience?...well, certainly not at EJA (NJA) at that time, so they went where they existed....the military G-lV VIP ranks and poaching Part 91 corporate pilots already doing that job. EJI, Gulfstream, and the insurance companies required pilots who could come in and begin int'l operations "right now" and head off to places like Jakarta, Lagos, or Hong Kong with people who had been there and done that. This meant they had to try and poach pilots from elsewhere, because for most EJA (NJA) pilots, having flown to "Athens and Rome" meant you probably flew Brasilias for ASA and had been everywhere in Georgia.

Now, it's not like there were experienced G-lV pilots standing in lines waiting for jobs back then, and NBAA salaries were high. The ONLY attraction EJI (NJI) offered for any corporate pilot doing those jobs was offering a schedule with fixed days off...something that is usually inversely proportional to the range of the aircraft in the Part 91 world, and less-hands on work with regards to dispatching, planning, etc. In other words, the job was easier than what they were usually doing.

But even with a schedule, those pilots weren't going to fly for gutter wages, so in order to poach these pilots EJI (NJI) needed to offer at least a livable salary at the low-end of Part 91 NBAA averages, otherwise nobody would have signed-on. NO WAY were they going to go to work for EJA (NJA) wage scales! As it was, most of these pilots took a pay CUT to go to EJI, and having known quite a few of them personally, if you told them EJI would be a union shop with dues to pay and seniority systems, they wouldn't have even considered it at all. They could have always gone to the majors long before then if that's the lifestyle and environment they had wanted, and I can't recall anyone there ever considering it a "stepping stone", because where was there left to step to? They didn't feel any need to form a union.

So the disparity you see now is simply a matter of what the ground-floor requirements were to operate in two different arenas... EJA domestic vs. EJI intn'l, and where the company could find the people to fill the slots. It boiled down to what terms everyone would agree to go work for. Newbie, jet-hungry, PFTing pilots who probably hadn't even heard of the NBAA and believed union rhetoric, vs. pilots who had "been there done that" as far as corporate ops and salary negotiations are concerned and had commanded higher salaries by virtue of their experience. But as I mentioned before, even those EJI G-lV salaries you think are so high were less than what they were making in the real Part 91 world.

These days, you can get someone from NJA who doesn't have that scope of experience and toss him/her into the mix, but they couldn't afford all that hand-holding back in the beginning when they were just setting it up.

I don't see why this is any mystery.

 

[netjetwife]

FAcFriend, quick answer (my kids want me to watch a movie w/them) it is a form of discrimination in my book, and apparently that of many of the pilots, that the company which owns both businesses--NJA and NJI--pays the non-union pilots better than their union counterparts. That is the ethical side of the question. The legal issue has something to do w/a single carrier status lawsuit that I have seen mentioned as a possibility. If it has merit then I'm sure we'll hear more about it later.

RFB, just to toss 2 more on your pile before I dash off---SCOPE and having to be available to the company by 2pm of your last day off--which then ceases to be a day off. The rest of your list is right on target, and truly does go on and on!

Have a good weekend, everyone!
Netjetwife

 

[netjetwife]

Thank you, CatYaak.....

That was a history lesson that taught me a lot, and probably others, as well. Those of us who are new can benefit from the shared knowledge of those who have been in the business awhile.

In the spirit of one good turn deserves another, I'll explain the perspective of those who question the pay disparity between NJA and NJI. Some hired because of the post 9-11 furloughs in the majors/airlines, actually DO have that level of experience. Wives, like me, look at NJI and wonder--"What's the big deal?" My husband has flown throughout Europe and in the Middle East. He's flown across the Atlantic, refueling in mid-air. He can fly like that; why isn't he paid like that?

My husband has explained to me that the demographics/level of experience has changed a lot at NJA in the past few years. He tells me that it's not the "Mom and Pop" airline that it once was. Many of the 1000 pilots hired in the last 4 years are more like the NJI pilots than they are the early NJA pilots described in your history lesson. Now if we can just get one of those new guys to give us all a current events lesson, the learning will continue....

 

[kingtut]

From Fltops.com.

NetJets Pilots Overwhelmingly Reject Contract

11/5/2004

Sources told Fltops.com today that 82 percent of NetJets pilots have rejected the company’s recent contract offer. The International Brotherhood of Teamsters has also rejected the local union’s move to build a new MEC to replace the officers whose terms expired on October 31, 2004. IBT says the MEC vote was invalidated due to irregularities at the local. Members of the local are reportedly under investigation by the IBT International, as well as the FBI. No local members are involved in the controversy.



IBT officials are expected to hold new MEC elections soon so the negotiating team can return to the bargaining table.