Why is NetJets TA Unfair?

[Starman]

NJAFracPilot,

You lost. Get over it.

Stay the hell out of the way while those of us with some self-worth fight for a good contract.

 

[netjetwife]

NJAFrac pilot, let's not lose sight of the fact that YOU are not supporting your family on FO/junior captain wages while calling for those that ARE to continue doing so for another 3 years! And obviously it doesn't bother you to advise other pilots in the company to take a PAYCUT for 3 years and then have to fight their way back to where they started from! Many currently on the flex would have faced EXACTLY that scenario. Your statement --"I want equitable pay for us"...is nothing more than lip service. Had your TRULY meant that, you'd have voted NO.

Starman, his problem isn't a lack of self-worth....though "self" is a key word. NJAFrac pilot is SELF-CENTERED. That's not a problem when you're going it alone, but this is a union---hhheelllooo! Those making much less than you--the vast majority--don't want to keep hearing that worn out "next time" tune any longer. Didn't you get that clue when you looked at the 82 percent (of 98% returned ballots) that voted NO? So you're happy with your pay--fine---but please stop telling others who make far less to be satisfied with theirs. NJW

 

[FAcFriend]

NJW
So do you think the programmer should be paid 50k or 150K? He has cert in all areas even though NJ only uses some of them. Its just a philosophical question.

I read this post and think- Kids stay in the AF longer!

Then i try to put myself in your shoes. The MEC said "kick ass pay" SU.org says "kick ass pay." What exaclty is Kick ass pay? 10%, 20%?

You both say "industry leading contract." But I read different definations of industry? Fractional, Aviation? Transportaion? What industry is MEC/SU.org talking about?

What about other benefits?
Medical, dental vision? Are they any good?
(I assume you have military benefits? I may be wrong)

Retirement? Is there a pension plan? Is this important?

I saw somewhere on this board that retro pay and bonus is a tax issue? Do you know the issue? Can anyone explain it to me?

Is your salary just salary or do you get overtime pay too? Is there any opportunity for overtime pay?

 

[Hawkered]

A change in tune...

Gotta agree with the wife on this one. We were promised "kick-ass, industry leading pay". We didn't see it.

There were plenty of people that saw the possibility of a real return on investment in pay-for-training (PFT). I never believed in it and quite honestly feared that PFT would be seen in the same way as "scab" by ALPA and other unions before long.

The destruction of the very livelihoods in this industry all began with PFT. While airlines contiued to bargain in good faith. Pilots with less experience simply took the "easy" route.

Isn't it time this problem was finally fixed?

Just like CVR language...should we really ever before looking at regressive pay scales or language in any area of the contract?

I did vote yes on the contract. I wish I hadn't, and I'm glad it didn't pass!

Lets get this whole industry back on the rails...one contract at a time.

 

[Publishers]

While an admirable thought, the fact is that you are the only union company in your immediate industry.

The airline union has found that they have extreme difficulty in protecting their turf in a deregulated environment.

Either way, there are a bunch of people who got a kick ass contract walking the street.

 

[gunfyter]

Tide is turning. LANDSLIDE Re-election of Bush and Republican congress means Taxcuts for the Rich will be permanant. They can now feel better about affording to pay pilots... Buy more and BIGGER and FASTER airplanes.

I just transferred all my investments to Stock and Real Estate. Look for DOW 11000 by Christmas and 13000+ by summer. NASD will grow faster.

Confidence will be fueled by more terrorist nations going the way of Libya and capitulating now that they see the American people support a strong President who will kick their ass.

Stability will cause oil prices to sink and then watchout... The continuation of the Reagan economic expansion will kick this economy into HIGH SPEED LOW DRAG overdrive.

 

[netjetwife]

FAcFriend, this recent article gives a good background to the situation as long as you remind yourself when you reach the end that the TA has now been voted down by 82% and the pilots are well on their way to achieving their other goals. http://www.ainonline.com/issues/11_...dcotractp4.html.

It seemed to me that "kick-ass" pay was another synonym for "industry-leading contract"--that industry being business aviation. Many referred to the NBAA salary reports as a benchmark for setting the NJA payscale. It makes sense to me and sounds quite reasonable. Btw, SU does NOT use the phrase "kick-ass" pay. They are doing what the failed MEC should have done--using the pilots' surveys to tell them what to fight for. Fairness will finally prevail!

Overtime is paid but the pilots are absolutely correct that families shouldn't have to rely on it to help pay the bills. The salary should be sufficient, in and of itself! It is wrong for the company and the last MEC to count overtime toward a pilot's compensation because they cannot count on it being there--the chances vary w/the plane and timing--not to mention that they are gone more than enough as it is! My husband extends 2 days a month for the extra money and other wives tell me that their husbands would also but the opportunity isn't there in those planes. The pilots are demanding that overtime become "gravy" as it is for other workers. Working those 2 extra days puts my husband gone 19 days a month; needless to say, I couldn't agree more.

Benefits are better than our AF retirement ones and the NJ pilots seem to be mostly satisfied, as far as I can tell. They do say they will give nothing up--completely understandable--and I hear calls for NJA to receive the same benefits as the other Netjets companies, usually NJI. This also seems reasonable as they are in the same family DOING THE SAME JOB and a parent isn't supposed to show favoritism--right?

I've seen retirement mentioned on the pilots board and the posts that listed it as an important objective were well received. And why not? It is a staple of professional compensation, isn't it? Loyalty should be rewarded and the growth of the company in recent years does owe much to the efforts of the pilot force. I'd be shocked if the managers don't have a retirement program--wouldn't you? How do they justify leaving out the pilots? This is another issue that will be addressed in the survey, but I do know that the pilots want it to be a career, not a stepping stone.

Tax question: The pilots are aware that they will need to seek expert tax advice, but it's generally accepted that it would be better to have the pay as Retro which applies to the past years and can be spread out (by each pilot) to adjust what was previously made rather than being a lump sum that can lose more, tax-wise, in the year that it falls in. This is my understanding and I invite any of the NJ pilots to help explain it better if I am not stating the case correctly.

Staying in the AF was only possible for about 12-18 months longer as the funds for my husband's position were not being extended by congress. He had already retired in 2001--went back in after 9-11 and his subsequent furlough from AA--and as a condition to returning to active duty agreed that he wouldn't be eligible for promotion and the program was of short duration. Working as hard as his peers for less money was not attractive. That experience does help us to understand the NJA vs NJI frustration, quite well, however. This board has been rife w/second-guessing, and I can understand it to a certain degree. Pilots and their wives do it to themselves as well, but with more compassion. I'm not saying you are being cruel, FAcFriend, but others have been. It saddens me that pilots will do that to one another. No one has a crystal ball nor would ever have predicted something like 9-11 which changed the industry and cost so many their lives. That said, life does go on and pilots must provide for their families. It must also be said that NJA is one of the few companies that actually grew during the aftermath of 9-11. They are NOT like the airlines!

If the NJ programmer took the job knowing that he was going to be overqualified and the pay DOES match the job duties, (for the pilots it doesn't)then he may well have to look elsewhere. If the company is interested in retaining him because of his skills, he can try for a better salary. Either way, the company should never pay programmers more than pilots who are responsible for the lives of others, plus, very costly airplanes, and are gone more than they are home. If this happens then CLEARLY THE PILOTS ARE UNDERPAID! I sympathize if you or your spouse are also facing job pressures.

Hawkered, we're just getting started and there is a lot of work to be done. SU needs everyone to participate; therein lies our strength. Welcome to the team!
Netjetwife

 

[kingtut]

gunfyter

First, congratulations upon the victory of your candidate and I applauded your enthusiasm and optimistic outlook for the future of our national economy. However, your mutual affinity for republican, conservative politics and organized labor presents an interesting dichotomy. Clearly, you are aware that the fortunes of organized labor are not improved by the dominance of the Republican Party in the White House and the Congress.

I certainly hope that your forecast of rich people passing their good fortune on to the less fortunate holds up. Experience tells me something else.

 

[netjetwife]

Kingtut, I could be cowardly and let you do all the talking on THAT issue, but it doesn't seem too fair. So here's my two cents worth---I concur...lol Now I'm going to pull a failed MEC and post and run...lol. Actually, I'm off to clean house, something that sounds preferable to discussing politics.... NJW PS Gunfyter, I do hope that you're right about the rich being willing to pay the pilots more! It does seem to me that they would care.

 

[Publishers]

The rich are rich for the most part because they pay attention to the details.
Most experienced programmers I know make more than corporate pilots.
Corporate and charter pilots, for the most part, do not get any of the benefits you get in the Netjets environment.
They grew because of 9/11 to some extent.
NJI was and is a different animal.