Why is NetJets TA Unfair?

[Indigo]

Class warfare

I find this a strange comment froma fractional/corporate pilot.

Definitely have to agree with you here. Many people like to bash the "rich" as if there is some sort of moral superiority to being "poor". But I realize that if it wasn't for the "rich" I would be out of a job.

 

[CatYaaak]

I think the biggest differences are that EJI is non-union, they lost money every year for the last 3 years, and they are paid much more than NJA unionized pilots.
There goes your theory that you have to be profitable to demand higher salaries. You just have to convince the CEO to rob the unionized folks to pay the non-union folks.

How come you guys/girls don't even know your own recent history? History is reason for the pay disparity and union/non-union manifestation of NJA vs. NJI and is quite simple....

When NJI (EJI) was started in the mid-90s, NJA (EJA) was aready in full-swing complete with it's PFT/traning contract/union dues-paying mess. MOST importantly, it was a WELL-KNOWN fact in the corporate world that the pay at NJA (EJA) sucked. The REASON is sucked was because by and large the pilots working there came from pre-RJ regional airline backgrounds flying Saabs and Brazilias for even LESS pay than was offered at EJA, and whored themselves out for a chance to fly jets and bolster their resume's for the major airlines, where they wished to return. Hiring at the majors was booming, and for them, EJA was merely a stepping-stone and a way to get ahead. The flying NJA (EJA) was doing suited them, hopping around domestically.

Now enter the desire to expand into international corporate-type ops using Gulfstreams. In the EJI (NJI) set-up deal, Gulfstream had a say in who was going to be operating their product, as do insurance companies in a globe-trotting environment. This requirement meant that the company needed extensive TIME-IN-TYPE, international ops experienced pilots right "out of the box". Where could they find that scope of exerience?...well, certainly not at EJA (NJA) at that time, so they went where they existed....the military G-lV VIP ranks and poaching Part 91 corporate pilots already doing that job. EJI, Gulfstream, and the insurance companies required pilots who could come in and begin int'l operations "right now" and head off to places like Jakarta, Lagos, or Hong Kong with people who had been there and done that. This meant they had to try and poach pilots from elsewhere, because for most EJA (NJA) pilots, having flown to "Athens and Rome" meant you probably flew Brasilias for ASA and had been everywhere in Georgia.

Now, it's not like there were experienced G-lV pilots standing in lines waiting for jobs back then, and NBAA salaries were high. The ONLY attraction EJI (NJI) offered for any corporate pilot doing those jobs was offering a schedule with fixed days off...something that is usually inversely proportional to the range of the aircraft in the Part 91 world, and less-hands on work with regards to dispatching, planning, etc. In other words, the job was easier than what they were usually doing.

But even with a schedule, those pilots weren't going to fly for gutter wages, so in order to poach these pilots EJI (NJI) needed to offer at least a livable salary at the low-end of Part 91 NBAA averages, otherwise nobody would have signed-on. NO WAY were they going to go to work for EJA (NJA) wage scales! As it was, most of these pilots took a pay CUT to go to EJI, and having known quite a few of them personally, if you told them EJI would be a union shop with dues to pay and seniority systems, they wouldn't have even considered it at all. They could have always gone to the majors long before then if that's the lifestyle and environment they had wanted, and I can't recall anyone there ever considering it a "stepping stone", because where was there left to step to? They didn't feel any need to form a union.

So the disparity you see now is simply a matter of what the ground-floor requirements were to operate in two different arenas... EJA domestic vs. EJI intn'l, and where the company could find the people to fill the slots. It boiled down to what terms everyone would agree to go work for. Newbie, jet-hungry, PFTing pilots who probably hadn't even heard of the NBAA and believed union rhetoric, vs. pilots who had "been there done that" as far as corporate ops and salary negotiations are concerned and had commanded higher salaries by virtue of their experience. But as I mentioned before, even those EJI G-lV salaries you think are so high were less than what they were making in the real Part 91 world.

These days, you can get someone from NJA who doesn't have that scope of experience and toss him/her into the mix, but they couldn't afford all that hand-holding back in the beginning when they were just setting it up.

I don't see why this is any mystery.

 

[netjetwife]

FAcFriend, quick answer (my kids want me to watch a movie w/them) it is a form of discrimination in my book, and apparently that of many of the pilots, that the company which owns both businesses--NJA and NJI--pays the non-union pilots better than their union counterparts. That is the ethical side of the question. The legal issue has something to do w/a single carrier status lawsuit that I have seen mentioned as a possibility. If it has merit then I'm sure we'll hear more about it later.

RFB, just to toss 2 more on your pile before I dash off---SCOPE and having to be available to the company by 2pm of your last day off--which then ceases to be a day off. The rest of your list is right on target, and truly does go on and on!

Have a good weekend, everyone!
Netjetwife

 

[netjetwife]

Thank you, CatYaak.....

That was a history lesson that taught me a lot, and probably others, as well. Those of us who are new can benefit from the shared knowledge of those who have been in the business awhile.

In the spirit of one good turn deserves another, I'll explain the perspective of those who question the pay disparity between NJA and NJI. Some hired because of the post 9-11 furloughs in the majors/airlines, actually DO have that level of experience. Wives, like me, look at NJI and wonder--"What's the big deal?" My husband has flown throughout Europe and in the Middle East. He's flown across the Atlantic, refueling in mid-air. He can fly like that; why isn't he paid like that?

My husband has explained to me that the demographics/level of experience has changed a lot at NJA in the past few years. He tells me that it's not the "Mom and Pop" airline that it once was. Many of the 1000 pilots hired in the last 4 years are more like the NJI pilots than they are the early NJA pilots described in your history lesson. Now if we can just get one of those new guys to give us all a current events lesson, the learning will continue....

 

[kingtut]

From Fltops.com.

NetJets Pilots Overwhelmingly Reject Contract

11/5/2004

Sources told Fltops.com today that 82 percent of NetJets pilots have rejected the company’s recent contract offer. The International Brotherhood of Teamsters has also rejected the local union’s move to build a new MEC to replace the officers whose terms expired on October 31, 2004. IBT says the MEC vote was invalidated due to irregularities at the local. Members of the local are reportedly under investigation by the IBT International, as well as the FBI. No local members are involved in the controversy.



IBT officials are expected to hold new MEC elections soon so the negotiating team can return to the bargaining table.

 

[rajflyboy]

Again I must say that this Contract is not all about Money.

Its about quality of life and also...... its about where you may or may not be able to live in the Future. Its about getting rid of harassment issues like the CVR Reviewing.

RCA's >> No way
CVR Reviewing >> No Way
3 am on the 8th day >> No way
show go with an airline on the first day >> No way
Signing Bonus should be pro rated by the Month

list goes on and on and on and on


When this stuff is fixed....Then We can talk about Money!!

 

[Diesel]

catyaak you couldn't be more wrong about how the nja nji thing came about.

Gulfstream and Executive Jet partnered up to offer a share of gulfstreams and to increase sales. Problem was Executive Jet was a union carrier and there was no way Gulfstream was going to have union pilots fly their airplanes. Gulfstream has no unions on property and since they were partners they had a saying in who flew the planes.

So RTS uses the guise of needing qualified pilots to fly the Gulfstreams to try and break the union so that Executive Jet Aviation would fall in line. Problem was the A part didn't want to go with the I part.

Some pilots went to gulfstream and left those trying to keep the union created some major bad blood. Other twisting of the knife was a higher pay scale, better benefits yada yada yada.

So anytime the union acomplishes something the NJI guys reap our benefits. All the work the union hotel comittee has done. NJI stays at the same hotels now. All the work the union hotel comittee get's done to make sure we have a hang out room at TEB embassy with free movies and internet. Guess what NJI guys hang out there. What about 7n7 oh yeah NJI got it after we had it.

It's a textbook example of divide and divide some more. If our crap mec had some nuts they would have filed a single carrier status but that's another story for another page.

 

[GVFlyer]

The initial contract between Gulfstream and NetJets was a Bill Boisture - Richard Santulli deal. Forstmann and Santulli are too much alike to have gotten along easily. Gulfstream provided the first three "core" aircraft because Santulli could not capitalize the deal at that time. It was jointly decided that only well experienced Gulfstream pilots would be hired for the new venture in that safety was to be a key marketing point and buyers would be guaranteed highly qualified Gulfstream pilots. To draw and retain the kind of pilots desired, starting and subsequent salaries were set to be industry leading (and still are).


Within a year EJI was profitable enough to give back the original three core aircraft and purchase their own to replace them.


Other than for maintenance, joint marketing and sales are the only relationships currently existing between Gulfstream and NJI. Gulfstream Shares sells Shares to existing Gulfstream customers and large cabin aircraft owners. NJI sells Gulfstream Shares to mid and small cabin aircraft owners as well as "Concept Buyers."

The existing relationship between NJI and Gulfstream is a close one. Raynor Reavis was VP for Gulfstream Shares, left Gulfstream to work with Keven Russell as Vice Presient for NetJets Sales, then returned to Gulfstream where he is presently Vice President Sales and Marketing.

As an aside, I can tell you that the pilots at NJI don't want anything to do with the union operation and are frankly amazed at NJA's continuing interest in them. We had a couple of 1/8 th shares and under NJI's rules the owning companies' pilots can fly in command on NJI aircraft as long as they meet NJI qualification and experience requirements as well as passing written, oral and flight checks. As such, I flew as a NJI Captain on our share aircraft for over a year and got to know many of the line pilots very well. I also know the Bluffton leadership group from our efforts in initially establishing the EJI program as well as from working special joint projects with them. I think I have a pretty balanced view of the organization and it is my observation that the NJI pilots are a very happy group with things just as they are.

The Sales / Marketing agreement with Gulfstream is the only relationship with a manufacturer that NetJets has in that NJA has broken their agreement with Boeing, returned three BBJ's, and is operating the remaining three Boeings as primarily charter aircraft.


GV

 

[rajflyboy]

Again I must say that this Contract is not all about Money.

Its about quality of life and also...... its about where you may or may not be able to live in the Future. Its about getting rid of harassment issues like the CVR Reviewing.

RCA's >> No way
CVR Reviewing >> No Way
3 am on the 8th day >> No way
show go with an airline on the first day >> No way
Signing Bonus should be pro rated by the Month

list goes on and on and on and on


When this stuff is fixed....Then We can talk about Money!!

 

[gunfyter]

The rich will just get richer, while the poor get poorer. Welcome to the "new world order.

I find this a strange comment froma fractional/corporate pilot. It the "rich" have less, more of them will fly commercial, therefore the economy will need fewer corporate/fractional/charter pilots.

Then you go to work at Home Depot?

I think the blue vest will look good on him.

 

[Publishers]

Separation

Perhaps someone else needs to look at the separation of church and state. There is plenty of evidence that Congress did not mean what is commonly thought of as spearation. In fact, you will not even find it mentioned in the first amendment. That same Congress even bought Bibles, started sessions with prayer, and generally acknowledged God existed throughout its existance.


The concept was actually started in letters from Thomas Jefferson. It was in fact the protection of religion, not the prevention of that was the concern as in England the church and state were one.

 

[gunfyter]

Cut it out Publishers... I can't be seen agreeing with you in public. As Governer, Thomas Jefferson the originator of the phrase also had endorsed Bible reading in Virginia Public Schools

 

[rajflyboy]

Again I must say that this Contract is not all about Money.

Its about quality of life and also...... its about where you may or may not be able to live in the Future. Its about getting rid of harassment issues like the CVR Reviewing.

RCA's >> No way
CVR Reviewing >> No Way
3 am on the 8th day >> No way
show go with an airline on the first day >> No way
Signing Bonus should be pro rated by the Month

list goes on and on and on and on


When this stuff is fixed....Then We can talk about Money!!


STOP TALKING ALL ABOUT THE MONEY! WE NEED TO FIX OTHER PARTS OF THE CONTRACT TOO !!

 

[Publishers]

Discrimination Issue.

I was formerly an operating officer for a non airline company. They did have mechanics that were unionized only in certain states. It was company policy that the non union mechanics would always be paid slightly more than the union people negotiated for.

No one in the company would ever have benefits less than what the union people were getting.

 

[FAcFriend]

thanks Publishers. I see the frustration brewing here and I am unable to understand the union points on some issues.

Since 9/11 pilots have been furloughed from majors, the pilots at NJA have become better qualified than the pilots who joined the company previously. Many of the newer pilots are as well qualified and trained as NJI pilots.

But that seems to be a function of the economy - they can get, hire and retain better qualified individuals at the same or in some cases better prices than their less qualified counterparts. Hence my programmer analogy.

What am I missing?

Now, that said, I do agree with some of the issues the pilots have gripes with- recording conversations in the cock pit that can be used for discipline. Sounds like big brother to me-

Also if you can get more pay- go for it. But i do not see the logic in the argument.