Why is Airways sucking up?

[TWA Dude]

Regionals are not entirely "feeders." We eliminate the need for the hub and spoke system. Point to point service is the future.

You're right in that regionals aren't just for feed. But while I agree that there's large RJ growth in store for p2p flying I don't see the demise of hub-and-spoke anytime soon. The hubs grew post-degregulation for very good reasons and those reasons remain still. RJs fill a very good niche, but if the market will support it -- in come the big jets.

 

[~~~^~~~]

RJs fill a very good niche, but if the market will support it -- in come the big jets....Now mainline pilots look at Delta with it's "unrestrained" RJ growth at Comair/ASA as the poster child for weak scope. But how bad off are the Delta pilots compared to the other majors right now? I think they're doing fine.

Exactly! That is the reason why we don't need ALPA trying to furlough pilots at ASA and Comair.

The mainline pilots will benefit by allowing ASA and Comair to preserve the route structure and feed. As soon as the route supports a mainline jet the Company will utilize the larger aircraft with its lower seat mile cost.

Both the APA and ALPA's efforts to force small jet pilots out on the street is simply mutual assured destruction - a lose / lose. Delta has told the mainline pilots that furloughs would be worse if it were not for the RJ feed.

Once ALPA forces the ASA and Comair furluoghs then mainline will furlough more, which leads to ratio furloughs at ASA & Comair - it is an unrecoverable death spiral...

 

[psyops]

I understand the frustration of the USAir WO's not having jets and that the USAir MEC's policies indirectly resulted in the non-WOs getting jets. But it's a mistake to think that just because everyone falls under the USAir Group umbrella that pilots need to favor each other. As badly as the WO's feel they're being treated, the USair pilots don't owe them anything.

You're almost right. For the last 9 years, the Airways MEC has refused to grant a bi-lateral flow through to the WOs (you know, the men and women who safely provide passengers for their jets). Now they are bleeding, and they want the WOs to help them. How about this modification to the last sentence in the above quote:

As badly as the Airways pilots feel they're being treated, the WO pilots don't owe them anything.

...that's for d-mn sure!

Let the bastards bleed!

 

[~~~^~~~]

As badly as the Airways pilots feel they're being treated, the WO pilots don't owe them anything. ...that's for d-mn sure! Let the bastards bleed!

ALPA has done so much to foster hatred amongst pilot groups - can hardly wait until ALPA asks a wholly owned to honor the mainline's picket line. Watch out ALPA, the workers down on the Plantation are getting restless....

Pilots at every mainline are in serious negotiations with management teams that are losing tons of money. United & US Air must take drastic action. If they went Chapter 13, abrogated their pilot contracts and the mainline guys struck - where do you think the replacements would come from?

At Delta, the company would be losing less money if they shut down the unprofitable unit and continued to fly the profitable units - would Delta take a strike now if they had to? Probably.

One of the finest moments in ALPA's history is when the United MEC found out that Ferris was training replacement pilots. The United MEC had pizza parties and explained to the scabs in training why it was important to walk out with the United pilots. When the 1985 strike came, all but 6 of the 570 new hires honored the United picket line. 95% of the United pilots held the picket line and kept United from instituting a concessionary contract.

The simple act of giving the scab trainees free food was an act of inclusion which unified the non - ALPA replacements with the United pilots. If ALPA does not act to bring pilots together the union will no longer be effective.

TWA dude - you understand this issue well. Perhaps what you do not fully appreciate is that ALPA has assumed the role of deciding which ALPA unit gets work and which group gets furloughed. For those of us on ALPA's hit list we feel like ALPA is a predator - the single largest threat to our jobs.

 

[TWA Dude]

How about this modification to the last sentence in the above quote: As badly as the Airways pilots feel they're being treated, the WO pilots don't owe them anything.

I'll complete the thought by simply stating that no one owes anyone anything. It's just business and a dose of self-preservation. You can't fault the USAir guys for trying to work something out with either the WO's or non WO's. If a deal that benefits both groups can be worked out then that's a good thing.

Anyone who thinks one pilot group is out to screw another is being too emotional and isn't seeing the "big picture".

 

[~~~^~~~]

no one owes anyone anything.... Anyone who thinks one pilot group is out to screw another is being too emotional and isn't seeing the "big picture".

If that is true answer me this, Sir. How do you feel about the representation ALPA has given you? Do you think the American pilots were out to screw you? Are you happy with your seniority integration (staple?)?

Would I not be seeing the big picture if I were to allege that ALPA would really like to see the APA re-join ALPA and that ALPA did not support Senator Bond's Airline Worker's Fairness Act. Do you feel that ALPA is more intent on impressing the American pilots than representing their members at TWA?

Overall, ALPA in their effort to be "the pilots' union" has been screwing minority members at an alarming rate lately. Yes, it gets emotional when the union I send money to treats me worse than the company that pays me. Who is the union working for?

 

[TWA Dude]

There are 3,500 jet pilots at Delta Connection who's loyalty to this union is being sorely tested.

I don't blame you for saying so. The RJ revolution has changed things so much that regional and mainline ALPA groups are now fighting for the same routes. ALPA exists primarily for mainline pilots for the simple reason that they get more money from them. In the TWA/AA integration it wasn't a huge National ALPA vs. the APA; but only the small TWALPA vs. the APA. Simply put ALPA would rather see the APA come back into the fold than to exert much effort on the ex-TWA guys behalf. It's just business. Something's gotta change and eventually it will.

 

[TWA Dude]

If that is true answer me this, Sir. How do you feel about the representation ALPA has given you? Do you think the American pilots were out to screw you? Are you happy with your staple job?

Apparently we were typing at the same time.

I believe the AA pilots were very successful at protecting their seniority list from any possible threats they perceived our group represented. I truly don't wish to get into another tit-for-tat argument with any AA guys here so I'll be brief and dispassionate. It all went back to last Feb/Mar when all the TWA unions "voluntarily" gave up any rights to Allegheny/Mohawk style arbitration because if we hadn't the bankruptcy judge would've abrogated our whole contract with the sale going through anyway. The APA believes we gave up the right to ensure the sale would go through -- an obvious difference of opinion that helped define their view of a "fair" integration.

Personally my being stapled isn't a big deal. I had two years seniority with TWA on my staple date. At this point it's very unclear how the fence will affect the more senior guys. I'll have to let you know.

 

[psyops]

TWA dude:

My emotionality is tied to the Airways committee member who, six years ago, looked across the table at three wholly owned representatives, and commenting on employment concerns, said:

"We're worried we'd have to lower the bar to let you people in"

A wrather large pile of sh-t coming from a guy who's airline's safety record cannot even compare with that of the wholly owned subsidiaries.

Safe, quality service still doesn't mean a thing to these dumb asses. They are as bad as the company they work for, and bitch about.

You're right.... it is business.

Let 'em go Chapter 13! Good riddance!

 

[~~~^~~~]

Wow, these crews are going to set a new standard in CRM. Anyone know who will train these pilots. Will the check airmen be from US Air, or the WO?

Will the US Air pilots be forced to re-vest their 401K and retirement? You know the IRS has rules that require a 401K roll over if you change employers.

The US Air plan opens up a big 'ol can of worms. Just wait until ALPA negotiates "same desk" for the mainliner's 401K's, then tries to maintain that there is not "operational integration."

ALPA's problem is that they have never seen a two - way street.

 

[JetProp]

fins:
Your point on another thread about APLA being a monopoly was interesting. How about the idea of all regional pilots (or are we small airline pilots now?) get together, form a class action lawsuit, and sue ALPA national over monopolistic practices and mis-representaion of "small" airline pilots.

 

[~~~^~~~]

(1) Well, unions are a legal monopoly. There are exemptions in the antitrust laws for collective bargaining. Unions are allowed to allocate labor. However, they can not legally control the tools, methods, or technology through their collective bargaining agreements.

(2) Every pilot group which wished to file a duty of fair representation claim would have different allegations and be in different jurisdictions. However, you could use the same Counsel that other pilot groups are using to reduce your costs and get more effective representation. The first step is to organize your own pilots, which is not easy since the company and the MEC are not going to assist. The RJDC would not have come together without some terrific pilot to pilot leadership & a good cause. However, that is all the RJDC is, pilots and a vision.

ALPA's grievance filed on behalf of the Delta pilots to furlough ASA and Comair pilots was a turning point. The litigation filed by the Comair pilots will soon be joined by other lawsuits in other jurisdictions. It is likely that one of these suits will include allegations that ALPA is illegally attempting to restrict the tools and technology embodied in the small jets that are flown WO subsidiaries.

 

[TWA Dude]

How about the idea of all regional pilots (or are we small airline pilots now?) get together, form a class action lawsuit, and sue ALPA national over monopolistic practices and mis-representaion of "small" airline pilots.

Some of us at TWA already inquired about the possibility of suing ALPA for poor representation. We were told that we can't sue our own union. I guess it's kind of like suing your doctor for malpractice -- while he's still treating you!

 

[~~~^~~~]

We were told that we can't sue our own union.

Let me guess - an ALPA attorney gave you that opinion. However, in your situation it might not do a lot of good...

 

[rjcap]

TWADude,

Its not a "niche" that RJ's fill. Its going to be over 50% of the entire market.

You continue to make the same mistake that most people do. You think the RJ is some fun cute little puppy that will sit in the corner and never get bigger or misbehave. Like a puppy the RJ will get MUCH bigger and it is guaranteed to make a mess of your carpet.

I just toured the new ASA CRJ 70 today. While it is only 20 more seats. It, and its sister the CRJ90, are setting a trend that will result in the demise of all Mad Dog and narrow body Boeing aircraft.
And they will do it using poorly paid regional pilots. I don't post this to stir a debate but I just can't understand why mainline pilots don't see the CRJ ( 50 -70 -90 and soon to be 100+ Dornier/Embraer models) as the industry threat that they are. These aircraft will enable mgmt to shift a large portion of the flying to the regionals who have significantly lower labor costs.

You have to stop thinking of RJ's as 50 seat aircraft. They are going to be 100 seats in 2 years. And don't tell me about scope. Its dead.

 

[Boeingman]

Everyone is making excellent points from their own perspectives.

What I see, as what happened to us at CAL in 83, there were a huge number of highly qualified ex ALPA pilots willing to cross our line. The potential for this is simmering once again amongst the highly qualified RJ pilots within our union and industry. I shudder to think of the next mainline group that walks for an extended period and a management team gets the idea of operating with scab pilots.

I got flamed for my logic, but I see the same thing happening again only over different circumstances. I am not trying to make excuses for actions people take, but there is a real problem developing here in this industry that goes far beyond the RJ issue.
People are getting very angry over actual or perceived actions taken by their union and it creates bitterness and resentment towards the mainline pilots and MEC's.


The question is, and it must be addressed....how much of the resentment will cause people to cross an ALPA picket line in the future? Unless you've lived through it, don't discount this possibility with the same tired scab rehtoric.

I say combine the lists and band togethor for OUR common goals of improving and maintaining our wages and working conditions.
The RJ is nothing more than the old DC-9-10's and 737-100's of the 60's. If it is paid accordingly and the pilots are on the list of the mainline...what is the problem here? Management throughout the industry is defining the RJ battle lines while we keep shooting at each others foxholes.

As far as USAir, there are many examples of their MEC's actions which angered people (i.e. EAL asset purchase issues). But they are no different then anyone else that their goals were to protect their own. Misguided in the overall scheme of things? Perhaps, but like UAL they made the mistake of thinking that the downfall could never happen to them. And that type of thinking is fatal.

Shields up, flame away.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Boeingman:

No flames - actually I respect and appreciate your post. You are brave enough to speak the truth.

After re-reading Flying the Line I & II, it is obvious this is the weakest ALPA has ever been. The source of this weakness is the fostering of alter ego airlines combined with ALPA getting intot the role of allocating who gets growth and who does not.

As you know the Delta MEC has filed a grievance to have me fired (in the name of protecting their contract - which was negotiated illegally to begin with). Do you think I would support a Delta strike over their contract?

You simply speak the truth that others are afraid to say.

Respectfully,

~~~^~~~

 

[psyops]

Boeingman:

You raise a good point regarding picket lines. I for one will never cross one (a pledge I made to myself when I got in this game). But I think the fact that ALPA forgave and forgot the CAL scabs will make it easier for some to cross lines in the future.

I've been in ALPA for 10 years. I'm as rah rah as can be for the good of the cause, however I am also aware that the union itself is as kinky and potentially sleazy as any employer. Consider the following:

A couple of years ago I was at ALPA HQ in DC and noticed a handbill on the wall. It was placed there by the unionized office workers of ALPA who were in contract negotiations. The letter complained, (of all things), that ALPA management was attempting to invoke merit based advancement. Do you believe that? Merit based advancement!? It seems that the higher ups at ALPA national wanted the cultivate their own stable of boot lickers there at HQ. Never mind the fact that those same people would never allow merit based advancement on airline properties. Facing the embarrasment of explaining pickets outside it's national office, ALPA backed down, and bagged the idea.

ALPA is a business. Big airlines are big revenue and get special consideration. That is causing the regionals to get restless. I wouldn't be at all surprised if we see the regionals picketing ALPA over mainline scope restrictions, or coming up with their own union. One that represents all of the people who's dues they collect.

 

[TWA Dude]

Its not a "niche" that RJ's fill. Its going to be over 50% of the entire market.

You're right, I hadn't though of it that way. Quite obviously airline management will do anything they can to use cheaper labor. Here at AMR the future fleet plan is to have AA fly nothing smaller than 737-800s. The MD80s will continue flying for a long time but there's no announced replacement for them (...Eagle).

So the question is, how will ALPA and APA deal with management's nefarious plan? IMHO a single list is inevitable along with realigned pay scales that increase linearly from small jet to large jets, as opposed to the huge bump we have now.

What else might happen?

 

[~~~^~~~]

Well actually 50% of the domestic market but.... That 50% requires many more airplanes, which means more pilots, to carry the same number of revenue seat miles.

At current growth rates in 2000, small jet pilots would have exceeded mainline pilot numbers in 2005. ALPA would have had a revolution since the democratic process would put the power in the Connection and Express's of the world. (And as we have agreed, ALPA Democracy has no limits - it is MOB RULE. Well ALPA does not want the wrong Mob to get control)

We have argued and I think proven, that scope constraints are not helpful for the mainline pilot. Airlines without scope constraints have grown faster that airline with tight scope. (CO,DL,AA v/s U, UAL) So if scope does not benefit the mainline pilot, why was it ALPA's #1 negotiating push? CONTROL

This is why ALPA is pushing scope. It is not about protecting and promoting mainline pilot careers. It is about control.

Scope is simply small jet pilot birth control. It is ALPA's attempts to keep them from being born and aborting the ones already conceived.

Read this report prepared for the IACP and see if you disagree with my economic analysis. Of course, this was developed independently of the RJDC, but now we have APA, IACP and the RJDC all reaching the same economic conclusions.

http://www.spamhouse.org/sterileboydreport.zip
http://www.spamhouse.org/sterileboydreport.pdf

What ALPA is missing (aside from any economic reality) is that another way to control the small jet pilots is to put them on one list, meaning one MEC. By inclusion, instead of exclusion, the mainline pilots could regain control, become more powerful, and restore the union . It is a shame that arrogance and greed is all that stands between all pilots standing together as one union.