Why is Airways sucking up?

[RichardFitzwell]

Thanks for elaborating TWA Dude. Many mainline pilots are afraid of loosing what they have. If management could, I feel they would do away with the majority of domestic mainline flying and pass it all on to the RJ.

For example, let's use a RJ Captain making $50K, a F/O making $25K, and a couple F/As making $18K hauling around 90 PAX. That's a total income of $111,000. An airline has got to make money at that rate. BUT there are still thousands of pilots out there that would kill to fly those fancy RJs for that kind of money. So let's say a couple years from now management decides to start a 'B' scale pay system at the regionals. WOW! Think how much more money they could make if they had captains willing to fly 90 PAX around making $25K, FOs making $18, etc. Where will it end???

As long as there are people willing to fly airplanes cheaper and management trying to increase shareholder profits there will be no end in sight. Show some dignity in the profession we have worked so hard to succeed in. Show support in the profession many mainline pilots are trying to save. When I was flying for the regionals, I had no intention of staying there. My sights were set on flying big airplanes at the major pay scale. Without pilots on all levels sticking together (SSL), the majors will shrink away to nothing and the regionals will be the ONLY step to flying PAX.

R.F.

 

[surplus1]

Thanks for elaborating TWA Dude. Many mainline pilots are afraid of loosing what they have.

Looks like many regional pilots are equally afraid of loosing what they have. It may not be much but it IS all that they have right now.

As long as there are people willing to fly airplanes cheaper and management trying to increase shareholder profits there will be no end in sight.

As long as there are labor unions unwilling to support the efforts of those who fly for less to fly for more, you are right. At present the "haves" do nothing to support the "have nots". On the contrary, their efforts are directed at eliminating them all together.

Show some dignity in the profession we have worked so hard to succeed in. Show support in the profession many mainline pilots are trying to save.

You got to be kidding. Mainline pilots are NOT trying to preserve the "profession". They are trying to preserve their jobs. The method they have chosen is to eliminate the jobs of regional pilots. Those regional pilots (while they may aspire to become mainline pilots) have kids and families to feed just like their mainline counterparts. They are equal members of "the profession" and are simply defending their own jobs.

This mess was created by mainline pilots and the labor union that they totally control. Management has taken full advantage of it.
Now the mainline pilots and their union, instead of trying to correct the problem they created, are making it worse by attempting to do more of what they have already done wrong.

Without pilots on all levels sticking together (SSL), the majors will shrink away to nothing and the regionals will be the ONLY step to flying PAX.
R.F.

Are we on the same planet? Mainline pilots have consistently opposed, by every possible means (legal and illegal), ALL efforts by regional pilots to stick together. Especially the concept of a single seniority list (SSL). Mainline pilot leaders have gone so far as to force the labor union they control to violate its duty of fair representation in their efforts to obstruct the legitimate claims of regional pilots and continue to stifle all prospects of unity. They won’t even discuss it.

In this atmosphere you call for unity? Just what would you have regional pilots do? Resign and give their jobs to furloughed mainline pilots? Looks like that's the course mainline pilots have set for their ship. On that basis it will founder on the rocks.

My friend, mainline pilots have made their own bed. If they now have to lie in it well, that's just too bad. Want unity? Then start by recognizing that regional pilots are also airline pilots. We all belong to the SAME profession buddy (whether you all like that or not)! Maybe its time for mainline pilots to get a reality check.

Best wishes.

 

[TWA Dude]

If management could, I feel they would do away with the majority of domestic mainline flying and pass it all on to the RJ.

That's the environment today. Recall that just two years ago mainline fleets were growing mightely as well. Mainline flying is far from capped in terms of growth.

Think how much more money they could make if they had captains willing to fly 90 PAX around making $25K, FOs making $18, etc. Where will it end???

Simple supply vs. demand economics will dictate how it all ends up. IMHO the future involves the merging of commuter and mainline seniority lists. I have no conceptual difficulty in seeing RJ salaries rise with a corresponding decrease in mainline salaries; thus keeping management happy. This won't all happen at once.

As long as there are people willing to fly airplanes cheaper and management trying to increase shareholder profits there will be no end in sight.

Human nature and business nature is as it is. Our industry is special to us but it doesn't differ so much from other professions.

Without pilots on all levels sticking together (SSL), the majors will shrink away to nothing and the regionals will be the ONLY step to flying PAX.

That's pretty pessimistic. The majors still have the lower CASM so as long as people keep flying they be okay.

 

[TWA Dude]

This mess was created by mainline pilots and the labor union that they totally control. Management has taken full advantage of it.
Now the mainline pilots and their union, instead of trying to correct the problem they created, are making it worse by attempting to do more of what they have already done wrong.

You have a point. Mainline unions were very slow to recognize the benefit to mainline flying that RJs represent. More feed = more big jet flying. Now mainline pilots look at Delta with it's "unrestrained" RJ growth at Comair/ASA as the poster child for weak scope. But how bad off are the Delta pilots compared to the other majors right now? I think they're doing fine.

Forgive me for sounding anti-union for a moment, but I think it's short-sighted that unions concentrate so heavily on maintaining maximum members on the payroll to the parent company's detriment. If a route can't support a mainline jet then why do unions insist that they must? I believe unions must moderate their tough stance on scope to keep with the times. Having said that, any such concession MUST have an ironclad snap-back provision. It's not right that management comes to unions for quick concessions when times are tough, yet when times are good they stonewall for years before sharing the wealth.

 

[rjcap]

TWADUDE,

One correction to your statement.

"Mainline unions were very slow to recognize the benefit to mainline flying that RJs represent. More feed = more big jet flying."

Regionals are not entirely "feeders." We eliminate the need for the hub and spoke system. Point to point service is the future.

 

[TWA Dude]

Regionals are not entirely "feeders." We eliminate the need for the hub and spoke system. Point to point service is the future.

You're right in that regionals aren't just for feed. But while I agree that there's large RJ growth in store for p2p flying I don't see the demise of hub-and-spoke anytime soon. The hubs grew post-degregulation for very good reasons and those reasons remain still. RJs fill a very good niche, but if the market will support it -- in come the big jets.

 

[~~~^~~~]

RJs fill a very good niche, but if the market will support it -- in come the big jets....Now mainline pilots look at Delta with it's "unrestrained" RJ growth at Comair/ASA as the poster child for weak scope. But how bad off are the Delta pilots compared to the other majors right now? I think they're doing fine.

Exactly! That is the reason why we don't need ALPA trying to furlough pilots at ASA and Comair.

The mainline pilots will benefit by allowing ASA and Comair to preserve the route structure and feed. As soon as the route supports a mainline jet the Company will utilize the larger aircraft with its lower seat mile cost.

Both the APA and ALPA's efforts to force small jet pilots out on the street is simply mutual assured destruction - a lose / lose. Delta has told the mainline pilots that furloughs would be worse if it were not for the RJ feed.

Once ALPA forces the ASA and Comair furluoghs then mainline will furlough more, which leads to ratio furloughs at ASA & Comair - it is an unrecoverable death spiral...

 

[psyops]

I understand the frustration of the USAir WO's not having jets and that the USAir MEC's policies indirectly resulted in the non-WOs getting jets. But it's a mistake to think that just because everyone falls under the USAir Group umbrella that pilots need to favor each other. As badly as the WO's feel they're being treated, the USair pilots don't owe them anything.

You're almost right. For the last 9 years, the Airways MEC has refused to grant a bi-lateral flow through to the WOs (you know, the men and women who safely provide passengers for their jets). Now they are bleeding, and they want the WOs to help them. How about this modification to the last sentence in the above quote:

As badly as the Airways pilots feel they're being treated, the WO pilots don't owe them anything.

...that's for d-mn sure!

Let the bastards bleed!

 

[~~~^~~~]

As badly as the Airways pilots feel they're being treated, the WO pilots don't owe them anything. ...that's for d-mn sure! Let the bastards bleed!

ALPA has done so much to foster hatred amongst pilot groups - can hardly wait until ALPA asks a wholly owned to honor the mainline's picket line. Watch out ALPA, the workers down on the Plantation are getting restless....

Pilots at every mainline are in serious negotiations with management teams that are losing tons of money. United & US Air must take drastic action. If they went Chapter 13, abrogated their pilot contracts and the mainline guys struck - where do you think the replacements would come from?

At Delta, the company would be losing less money if they shut down the unprofitable unit and continued to fly the profitable units - would Delta take a strike now if they had to? Probably.

One of the finest moments in ALPA's history is when the United MEC found out that Ferris was training replacement pilots. The United MEC had pizza parties and explained to the scabs in training why it was important to walk out with the United pilots. When the 1985 strike came, all but 6 of the 570 new hires honored the United picket line. 95% of the United pilots held the picket line and kept United from instituting a concessionary contract.

The simple act of giving the scab trainees free food was an act of inclusion which unified the non - ALPA replacements with the United pilots. If ALPA does not act to bring pilots together the union will no longer be effective.

TWA dude - you understand this issue well. Perhaps what you do not fully appreciate is that ALPA has assumed the role of deciding which ALPA unit gets work and which group gets furloughed. For those of us on ALPA's hit list we feel like ALPA is a predator - the single largest threat to our jobs.

 

[TWA Dude]

How about this modification to the last sentence in the above quote: As badly as the Airways pilots feel they're being treated, the WO pilots don't owe them anything.

I'll complete the thought by simply stating that no one owes anyone anything. It's just business and a dose of self-preservation. You can't fault the USAir guys for trying to work something out with either the WO's or non WO's. If a deal that benefits both groups can be worked out then that's a good thing.

Anyone who thinks one pilot group is out to screw another is being too emotional and isn't seeing the "big picture".

 

[~~~^~~~]

no one owes anyone anything.... Anyone who thinks one pilot group is out to screw another is being too emotional and isn't seeing the "big picture".

If that is true answer me this, Sir. How do you feel about the representation ALPA has given you? Do you think the American pilots were out to screw you? Are you happy with your seniority integration (staple?)?

Would I not be seeing the big picture if I were to allege that ALPA would really like to see the APA re-join ALPA and that ALPA did not support Senator Bond's Airline Worker's Fairness Act. Do you feel that ALPA is more intent on impressing the American pilots than representing their members at TWA?

Overall, ALPA in their effort to be "the pilots' union" has been screwing minority members at an alarming rate lately. Yes, it gets emotional when the union I send money to treats me worse than the company that pays me. Who is the union working for?

 

[TWA Dude]

There are 3,500 jet pilots at Delta Connection who's loyalty to this union is being sorely tested.

I don't blame you for saying so. The RJ revolution has changed things so much that regional and mainline ALPA groups are now fighting for the same routes. ALPA exists primarily for mainline pilots for the simple reason that they get more money from them. In the TWA/AA integration it wasn't a huge National ALPA vs. the APA; but only the small TWALPA vs. the APA. Simply put ALPA would rather see the APA come back into the fold than to exert much effort on the ex-TWA guys behalf. It's just business. Something's gotta change and eventually it will.

 

[TWA Dude]

If that is true answer me this, Sir. How do you feel about the representation ALPA has given you? Do you think the American pilots were out to screw you? Are you happy with your staple job?

Apparently we were typing at the same time.

I believe the AA pilots were very successful at protecting their seniority list from any possible threats they perceived our group represented. I truly don't wish to get into another tit-for-tat argument with any AA guys here so I'll be brief and dispassionate. It all went back to last Feb/Mar when all the TWA unions "voluntarily" gave up any rights to Allegheny/Mohawk style arbitration because if we hadn't the bankruptcy judge would've abrogated our whole contract with the sale going through anyway. The APA believes we gave up the right to ensure the sale would go through -- an obvious difference of opinion that helped define their view of a "fair" integration.

Personally my being stapled isn't a big deal. I had two years seniority with TWA on my staple date. At this point it's very unclear how the fence will affect the more senior guys. I'll have to let you know.

 

[psyops]

TWA dude:

My emotionality is tied to the Airways committee member who, six years ago, looked across the table at three wholly owned representatives, and commenting on employment concerns, said:

"We're worried we'd have to lower the bar to let you people in"

A wrather large pile of sh-t coming from a guy who's airline's safety record cannot even compare with that of the wholly owned subsidiaries.

Safe, quality service still doesn't mean a thing to these dumb asses. They are as bad as the company they work for, and bitch about.

You're right.... it is business.

Let 'em go Chapter 13! Good riddance!

 

[~~~^~~~]

Wow, these crews are going to set a new standard in CRM. Anyone know who will train these pilots. Will the check airmen be from US Air, or the WO?

Will the US Air pilots be forced to re-vest their 401K and retirement? You know the IRS has rules that require a 401K roll over if you change employers.

The US Air plan opens up a big 'ol can of worms. Just wait until ALPA negotiates "same desk" for the mainliner's 401K's, then tries to maintain that there is not "operational integration."

ALPA's problem is that they have never seen a two - way street.