Why is Airways sucking up?

[JetProp]

Lear 24:
I'm a PDT guy and we don't get it either. We provide reliable service and do an overall good job for U. I don't understand what benefit U stands to gain by opressing the us and keeping us down. I understand that we make money, even in rough ecomonic times. With RJ's the combined WO's could make a lot more money and provide even better service.

Go to the "D" con in CLT and talk to a gate agent, they will roll their eyes and tell about the unreliable service provided by MESA. One CSA told me "they no-show a lot, if they show up at all"! So, our reward for years of dedicated service is to be slapped in the face?

Seems like their doing ALG with SA, the same way they did PDT with Pot air. I know for a fact U is scared of the WO's forming single carrier.

Many of us are very frustrated and disappionted now.
Regards, JetProp

 

[av8instyle]

Regional growth?

This subject can be discussed for eternity. Here's my opinion:

1-The hub-spoke system will not go away like others have inferred. It's too expensive to alter that system as was proven prior to deregulation.

2-The regionals will always be there but they will never dominate. Using the current state of airport security, let me tell you why the regionals aren't filling many seats: At one major west coast airport it takes 2 hours on some days to get to the TICKET COUNTER. Then add another hour through security. Add to that the time to get to the airport, the cost of the ticket, and the cost of the rental car once you get to your destination. Now, I don't know about you but my guess is that a person that feels unsafe about flying anyway, or even the ones that feel safe, would rather use that 4 hours of airport time and drive to where they want to go. At least it would be cheaper and they'd have a car.

3-The majors will never go away. You can't justify an RJ to take you from SEA-NY, or many other longer, more lucrative markets. They are not able to cross the pond so that alone leaves a lot of flying.

4-The history of commercial aviation has proven time and time again that it will look horrid and eventually prosper. ALPA has fought many battles that seemed not winnable and has usually turned out positive.

Everything that is happening right now is a result of the economy, with 9-11 being merely an accelerator. It will turn around, and when it does, make sure your apps are updated.

P.S. SWA is a good bet right now and the company management is doing good things. But in 04 the profits will decrease due to a huge increase in pilot compensation and the addition of a retirement. This does not mean the company will go the way of USAir, it means the profits will shrink a little. This is the natural progression for a growing airline.

Good Luck.

 

[Tim47SIP]

Richard wrote "It's called job perseverance. They are simply trying to protect the jobs they worked hard for by limiting the growth of their competition. Regional growth is proving to be their biggest competition. They are simply trying to survive. No hidden agenda"

Rich, that is the whole problem with all of the majors. Every one who has the type of scope that is supposed to protect them by limiting growth, has made it extreemly dificult for the company to stay profitable. This Ostrich approach is what is going to kill ALPA in the long run. Here is a deffinition:

1. A large, swift-running flightless bird (Struthio camelus) of Africa, characterized by a long bare neck, small head, and two-toed feet. It is the largest living bird.

2. One who tries to avoid disagreeable situations by refusing to face them.

Since we are not talking about big birds here, the second deffinition is the key as ALPA continues to keep their hands over their eyes, and scream out the union chant so they dont have to hear or see what is going on arround them. Status Quo - You know! The industry is going to change with or without them. They can fight all they want, but filing for Ch13 will result in a much easier game plan for management (they can throw out the contract) if it comes down to it. United and US are just about there.

Marco wrote "Speaking of UAL,one of the next big things for RJDC to jump up and down over will be the outcome of the SJ grievance at UAL mainline. Nobody knows what will happen, but whatever the outcome you can bet that there will be fewer UAX SJ's than planned pre 9/11 until mainline builds their fleet back up to contract levels. "
So explain to me how exactly is this good for anyone? The company continues to bleed money, more furloughs occure, and the RJ operators move into financial ruin. Forcing a company to spend more money (it doesn't have) on more large aircraft it cant fill, and not allowing it to expand its feeders for market dominance is assenine. Great scope! Contract or no contract, mainline is not going to "preserve the industry" here, it is going to take it down little by little. Personnaly, I think you will see the oposite here with probability of Ch13 filing for relief of it's own pilot contracts (concerning US and United).

Every major with limiting scope is having problems gaining market share and profitability. Delta seems to be surviving better than most becasue it pretty much is ignoring the contract guidelines (which has been grieved by DALPA last week). It doesn't take a genious to see what is happening to the industry. It is in a metamorphasis and can not go back to pre 911 structures. Mainline will grow, but not for a few years while WO's will grow considerably now and peak out in a couple of years once the markets have settled. Mainlines real enemy is not the RJ expansion, it is SW, ATA, Jet Blue etc. I continuously here that the regionals are the problem (sometimes called scabs) because we accept jobs for less money, yet no one says anything about the low paid pilots of SW, ATA, jet Blue, etc. which is causing the low cost tickets that AA (APA), DAL, CO, NW, U and US have to meet.

Fins, I really dont think you will see many furloughs at DCI because of the astronomical training costs associated with it. Although I dont think that they will win their grievance, in the event that they do, there will probably be a shift in DCI expansion to mainline, i.e. 70 seater stuff. Hey, but what about that operational inigration stuff over the last two years. What will ALPA do about that? Probably go back to deffinition #2 above.

 

[TWA Dude]

I must be crazy to jump into this hornet's nest, but I guess pilots just do this kind of thing sometimes.

People are taking this stuff too personally. Those who said it's just about preserving jobs at our own airlines are right on the money. Mainlines guys (rightly or wrongly) feel that RJs are a threat to their jobs. Here at AMR the APA's refusal to relax scope is indirectly leading to more Eagle furloughs. I certainly don't blame the Eagle guys for being bitter, but it's not a matter pilots vs. pilots; it's APA vs. management and Eagle vs. management.

I understand the frustration of the USAir WO's not having jets and that the USAir MEC's policies indirectly resulted in the non-WOs getting jets. But it's a mistake to think that just because everyone falls under the USAir Group umbrella that pilots need to favor each other. As badly as the WO's feel they're being treated, the USair pilots don't owe them anything.

BLAME MANAGEMENT! They're the ones who get to sit back grinning at all the bickering. Mind you management couldn't care less who flies their freakin' airplanes; they just wanna make a profit. Bottom line: unions get in the way of profits. 'nuff said.

 

[Tim47SIP]

TWA Dude wrote "Mind you management couldn't care less who flies their freakin' airplanes; they just wanna make a profit. Bottom line: unions get in the way of profits. 'nuff said."

You are 100% correct! Hence my previous post. P.S. I think the furloughs are a direct result not an indirect result.

 

[RichardFitzwell]

Thanks for elaborating TWA Dude. Many mainline pilots are afraid of loosing what they have. If management could, I feel they would do away with the majority of domestic mainline flying and pass it all on to the RJ.

For example, let's use a RJ Captain making $50K, a F/O making $25K, and a couple F/As making $18K hauling around 90 PAX. That's a total income of $111,000. An airline has got to make money at that rate. BUT there are still thousands of pilots out there that would kill to fly those fancy RJs for that kind of money. So let's say a couple years from now management decides to start a 'B' scale pay system at the regionals. WOW! Think how much more money they could make if they had captains willing to fly 90 PAX around making $25K, FOs making $18, etc. Where will it end???

As long as there are people willing to fly airplanes cheaper and management trying to increase shareholder profits there will be no end in sight. Show some dignity in the profession we have worked so hard to succeed in. Show support in the profession many mainline pilots are trying to save. When I was flying for the regionals, I had no intention of staying there. My sights were set on flying big airplanes at the major pay scale. Without pilots on all levels sticking together (SSL), the majors will shrink away to nothing and the regionals will be the ONLY step to flying PAX.

R.F.

 

[surplus1]

Thanks for elaborating TWA Dude. Many mainline pilots are afraid of loosing what they have.

Looks like many regional pilots are equally afraid of loosing what they have. It may not be much but it IS all that they have right now.

As long as there are people willing to fly airplanes cheaper and management trying to increase shareholder profits there will be no end in sight.

As long as there are labor unions unwilling to support the efforts of those who fly for less to fly for more, you are right. At present the "haves" do nothing to support the "have nots". On the contrary, their efforts are directed at eliminating them all together.

Show some dignity in the profession we have worked so hard to succeed in. Show support in the profession many mainline pilots are trying to save.

You got to be kidding. Mainline pilots are NOT trying to preserve the "profession". They are trying to preserve their jobs. The method they have chosen is to eliminate the jobs of regional pilots. Those regional pilots (while they may aspire to become mainline pilots) have kids and families to feed just like their mainline counterparts. They are equal members of "the profession" and are simply defending their own jobs.

This mess was created by mainline pilots and the labor union that they totally control. Management has taken full advantage of it.
Now the mainline pilots and their union, instead of trying to correct the problem they created, are making it worse by attempting to do more of what they have already done wrong.

Without pilots on all levels sticking together (SSL), the majors will shrink away to nothing and the regionals will be the ONLY step to flying PAX.
R.F.

Are we on the same planet? Mainline pilots have consistently opposed, by every possible means (legal and illegal), ALL efforts by regional pilots to stick together. Especially the concept of a single seniority list (SSL). Mainline pilot leaders have gone so far as to force the labor union they control to violate its duty of fair representation in their efforts to obstruct the legitimate claims of regional pilots and continue to stifle all prospects of unity. They won’t even discuss it.

In this atmosphere you call for unity? Just what would you have regional pilots do? Resign and give their jobs to furloughed mainline pilots? Looks like that's the course mainline pilots have set for their ship. On that basis it will founder on the rocks.

My friend, mainline pilots have made their own bed. If they now have to lie in it well, that's just too bad. Want unity? Then start by recognizing that regional pilots are also airline pilots. We all belong to the SAME profession buddy (whether you all like that or not)! Maybe its time for mainline pilots to get a reality check.

Best wishes.

 

[TWA Dude]

If management could, I feel they would do away with the majority of domestic mainline flying and pass it all on to the RJ.

That's the environment today. Recall that just two years ago mainline fleets were growing mightely as well. Mainline flying is far from capped in terms of growth.

Think how much more money they could make if they had captains willing to fly 90 PAX around making $25K, FOs making $18, etc. Where will it end???

Simple supply vs. demand economics will dictate how it all ends up. IMHO the future involves the merging of commuter and mainline seniority lists. I have no conceptual difficulty in seeing RJ salaries rise with a corresponding decrease in mainline salaries; thus keeping management happy. This won't all happen at once.

As long as there are people willing to fly airplanes cheaper and management trying to increase shareholder profits there will be no end in sight.

Human nature and business nature is as it is. Our industry is special to us but it doesn't differ so much from other professions.

Without pilots on all levels sticking together (SSL), the majors will shrink away to nothing and the regionals will be the ONLY step to flying PAX.

That's pretty pessimistic. The majors still have the lower CASM so as long as people keep flying they be okay.

 

[TWA Dude]

This mess was created by mainline pilots and the labor union that they totally control. Management has taken full advantage of it.
Now the mainline pilots and their union, instead of trying to correct the problem they created, are making it worse by attempting to do more of what they have already done wrong.

You have a point. Mainline unions were very slow to recognize the benefit to mainline flying that RJs represent. More feed = more big jet flying. Now mainline pilots look at Delta with it's "unrestrained" RJ growth at Comair/ASA as the poster child for weak scope. But how bad off are the Delta pilots compared to the other majors right now? I think they're doing fine.

Forgive me for sounding anti-union for a moment, but I think it's short-sighted that unions concentrate so heavily on maintaining maximum members on the payroll to the parent company's detriment. If a route can't support a mainline jet then why do unions insist that they must? I believe unions must moderate their tough stance on scope to keep with the times. Having said that, any such concession MUST have an ironclad snap-back provision. It's not right that management comes to unions for quick concessions when times are tough, yet when times are good they stonewall for years before sharing the wealth.

 

[rjcap]

TWADUDE,

One correction to your statement.

"Mainline unions were very slow to recognize the benefit to mainline flying that RJs represent. More feed = more big jet flying."

Regionals are not entirely "feeders." We eliminate the need for the hub and spoke system. Point to point service is the future.