Why is Airways sucking up?

[RichardFitzwell]

...or at least until management can find somebody else willing to work for even less.

Draginass,

It's a 'Regional B Scale' and its a very real posibility. I hope Boeingman agrees with me when I say 'The One List' concept is rapidly gaining support at CAL.

As for ALPA forgiving the CAL pilots that crossed in the early 80's, they sort of did...but the pilots didn't.

R.F.

 

[Marko Ramius]

My personal opinion is that ALPA's primary failing is that they allowed domestic codeshare agreements in the first place. ALPA should be pushing for integration for each "brand" of flying to reduce the alter ego problem and unite pilots. That is idealistic, but ALPA can go that direction by addressing the issue of the wholly owneds which is not that great of a legal problem, just a political problem.

Fins,

I know you aren't the RJDC, on this board however you seem to be their defacto agent because you have the most useful info on the subject. Angry posts from either side, don't solve anything. The reason I asked the question about ACA and Skywest is because I have seen numerous posts in many places saying that once onelist is achieved, the combined entity would seek to scope out contract affiliate carriers. ASA/CMR want to do it to SKW and ACA, Eagle wants to do it to CHQ/TSA/Corpex, UsAirways wants to do it to their contract carriers as well. It's job security, so I actually don't have a huge problem with them wanting to do it. What gets me is that I feel that RJDC presents itself as an independant entity on the surface, when it really is just a vehicle for a group of Comair and ASA pilot's wishes. That again is fine, as they are protecting their own interests, but I have a problem with all of the "harmful scope," talk from a group that has designs using scope language themselves in the future. I also feel that they post all of the stuff that is going on at AMR, CoEx, and Eagle just to cull up support(i.e. $$$) for their fight at CMR/ASA. Is RJDC going to fight for these groups as well? If not they should make that fact clear to them before they donate, as well as the fact that they are planning to scope out no WO carriers after they get their wishes. I know this is an unwieldly situation bearing many different angles and misinformation, but sometimes I think RJDC is pushing a"two wrongs make a right," agenda by presenting plenty of jaded info and interpretations.

 

[psyops]

As for ALPA forgiving the CAL pilots that crossed in the early 80's, they sort of did...but the pilots didn't.

R.F.

At ALPA, you're a scab unless you have money. Then they welcome you back.

I think the UAL pilots have the right idea. Once a scab, always a scab. Never speak to them again.

 

[Tim47SIP]

Marco, you deffinitely have a good point, but I personally think it is apples and oranges. ASA/Comair are wholey owns in which Delta dictates policy to. ACA, Sky West, etc. are owned by some other entity and are sub contractors for Delta, which has no say whatsoever in their day to day activities other that mission completion, aircraft colors, etc. RJDC is suing ALPA for manipulative tacticts concerning negotiations within the Delta family and in accordance with ALPA policy. Lets say that Delta, ASA, and Comair were put under one list and furloughs were brought back and ASA/Comair now had to furlough. Should the furloughs include ACA and Sky West? No. If the lists were integrated, how would just some of the contracted pilots from each group who fly the Delta routes be split up to be added on to that list? They cant be (unless you are US mainline, then you can do what you want). Your argument though is very real and should be addressed. Unfortunately, when you work for a company that represents two or more mainlines through different contracts, it becomes very difficult in these situations as your company can switch between them at will depending upon the contract. The part regarding whether or not ACA or Skywest should be scoped out by ASA/Comair pilots? No, as long it is not at the expence of any Delta mainline, ASA or Comair pilot. Is that a fair statement looking at it from the ACA Sky West end, probably not. I guess another way of looking at it is that your company is contracted for a fee per trip. Other than that it has no other ties to remain commited to Delta or anyone else for that matter and can branch off anywhere it chooses to. Your contract may or may not be renewed, ours is deffinite unless we are sold or liquidated. If ASA and Comair try to scope you off the routes (which they cant do, do the the length of the existing conctracts) it would be more of a territorial grab for Delta pilots as a whole "all Delta flying by Delta pilots". I know that is as clear as mud, but it is just my take of it. Not ment to offend anyone concerning this subject, which is a sticky one.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Marco:

I think Tim47 said it pretty clearly. I would only add that all of us outside the group A carriers are in the same boat when it comes to problems with ALPA's representational structure and anti - small jet agenda. If one group, say COEX, is successful in leading the way to ending alter - ego then that helps me as an ASA pilot. The assistance is not direct (since CO would then be a more effective competitor than Delta) but once one group of pilots shows the way the resistance will be less for those who need to follow in their footsteps.

So whether it be the group I support, or a group of Skywest pilots, does not matter to me as much as the eventual positive outcome for our industry.

Good question - BTW.

~~~^~~~

 

[Mallard]

Yeah it's self-preservation. We regional guys are supposed to be understanding of that, right?

But I fail to see how major airline pilots were so understanding of RJs entering the market. It gets a little tiring to hear off-color comments when I jumpseat because I fly an RJ. We're taking their business, blah, blah, blah. Yes sir, thanks for the ride!

When those same people are furloughed, that lil' RJ doesn't look so bad. And somehow those strong beliefs can be bent to keep themselves seated in a jet.

If we can keep more pilots flying both at majors and regionals all the better. But you must understand why there is some bitterness about all this.

 

[RichardFitzwell]

Yeah it's self-preservation. We regional guys are supposed to be understanding of that, right?

But I fail to see how major airline pilots were so understanding of RJs entering the market. It gets a little tiring to hear off-color comments when I jumpseat because I fly an RJ. We're taking their business, blah, blah, blah. Yes sir, thanks for the ride!

When those same people are furloughed, that lil' RJ doesn't look so bad. And somehow those strong beliefs can be bent to keep themselves seated in a jet.

If we can keep more pilots flying both at majors and regionals all the better. But you must understand why there is some bitterness about all this.

Mallard,

From your profile I would say you went from being a flight instructor to F/O on the jet, right? That's quite impressive.

I'm sorry you get the occasional ribbing when you ask mainline guys for the jumpseat. That is certainly unprofessional. Their bitterness is being misguided toward you when you are simply doing your job. They should be trying to gain your support so we can bring this industry together. We need to work on bringing regional pilots and mainline pilots together. We need the same senority list now (SSL).

I hear you saying...well he's just saying that because of what has happened with this industry recently, Right? Who really cares how I or anyone else has come to realize the importance of joining lists. Some look at job security and others look at career advancement. The important thing is that most can see it as a necessary evil. Otherwise, there is the possibility you will spend your entire career in the RJ.

R.F.

 

[Draginass]

Richard-

We need the same senority list now (SSL).

I've asked this many times from regional guys, but still don't have a coherent, practical, and specific answer -- How specifically is that going to happen when the major corporations have completely separate companies with completely separate labor contracts? What possible leverage do the major and regional company unions have to make the corporation merge the commuter and major lines?? Spare me the kum ba ya, please. Just the hard, specific actions required.

 

[RichardFitzwell]

This obviously will not be the answer at every airline. This will only work where the regional is currently owned by the major. Examples of this would be CAL -- CAL Express (Express Jet), American -- American Eagle, etc.

No kum ba ya.

R.F.

 

[rjcap]

Dragin----

Basically it will happen at one of the wholly owned ops first. Then followed quickly by the other wholly owned ops. As for the independents who knows what they will face.

One thing is for sure. When it happens there will be a great deal of kicking and screaming of bloody murder by those individuals who feel that they were slighted in some way. But as with all things, life will go on. Hopefully for the better.

I hope you didn't want details !!!!

 

[surplus1]

Dragin ...

I've asked this many times from regional guys, but still don't have a coherent, practical, and specific answer -- How specifically is that going to happen when the major corporations have completely separate companies with completely separate labor contracts? What possible leverage do the major and regional company unions have to make the corporation merge the commuter and major lines?? Spare me the kum ba ya, please. Just the hard, specific actions required.

Fair question. With all due respect, you're having this problem with how to do it because you are thinking inside the box. The solution is not simplistic, but there are ways to do it.

First: Do not make the assumption that a merger of the seniority lists, requires a merger of the corporate entities. It does not.

Second: A single seniority list of pilots can include contractual differences within a single contract. I can also include completely separate contracts for different components if that is what the parties choose to do.

There is precedent for both of these situations. Let's take one example: The corporate entity that is Continental Airlines, owns 3 different companies. CAL, Air Micronesia and CALEX. Each has a separate operating certificate and each is a different "company" on paper. The pilots of Air Micronesia are CAL pilots too, on the same seniority list with the same contract. The pilots of CALEX are on a separate seniority list with a different contract. CAL and Air Micronesia were NOT merged to accomplish this.

Here is another scenario: Delta Air Lines, created Delta Express. While not a separete corporation per se, the pilots are on the same seniority list. Delta mainline pilots did not have the identical contract as Delta Express pilots. Something called a Supplemental Agreement was created to cover the Delta Express operation. While some contractual provisions were the same many were not, particularly the pay rates (for the same equipment) and the work rules.

The first airline to create that scenario was United, with what they called United Shuttle. The details were slightly different but the concept was the same. Later on USAir did the same thing, creating Metro Jet.

All three of these concepts created problems because they were in fact a "B" scale with a different name and pilots resented them. In the case of the regional airlines, contractual differences such as pay rates would NOT be a B-scale. Why, because the equipment is different. (A B-scale is different pay for the SAME equipment in the same company).

In addition to what I've mentioned above, there are more ways to do this as well. The bottom line is not too difficult: The parent corporation, e.g., AMR, DAL, CAL, NWA, AAA (those are the ones that currently include ownership of more than one air carrier), all want to avoid merging the particular corporate entities for reasons they see as economic. Meanwhile, the pilots want to merge the seniority lists in order to control ALL the flying within an air carrier system (plus a few other reasons). Both of these basic desires can be met with a little creative thinking.

As for the issue of what to do about the sub-contracting companies (someone else mentioned that as a problem for the RJDC) it isn't a problem and it is not a conflict of intererst within the RJDC either. That is apples and oranges.

One of the RJDC objectives is to eliminate the problem of alter ego airlines. That is separate from the proplem of sub contracting. Two totally separate issues.

The RJDC does NOT advocate the elimination of all scope. That idea is way off base. It is opposed to scope against different divisions of the same airline system. A horse of a very different color.

It may not be possible to kill both of those birds with the same stone. Once the issue of alter ego airlines, i.e., multiple carriers and seniority lists with a single owner, is resolved, the next step is to tackle the problem of sub-contracting.

In my opinion, efforts to put the two together is mainline pilots jousting at windmills in an attempt to justify their opposition to integration with regional pilots. It didn't work for Don Quijote and it wont work for them. If we do not take positive action to resolve this problem it will get far worse before it gets better.

It is bad policy for any pilot group to permit the parent corporation to own multiple air carriers with separate seniority list. All that does is provide management with the tools needed to effectively defeat the collective bargaining process. Instead of fighting integration with scope clauses that have been proven ineffective, mainline pilots should be struggling to eliminate the alter egos before they grow to demensions that become totally uncontrollable.

Shortsightedness on the part of union leaders (all of whom just happen to be mainline pilots) has not only created this debacle but continues to exaserbate the resulting problems. Unless those leaders reverse course and fast, airline pilots in both large and small carriers are going to suffer the consequences for many years to come. The thought process these leaders seem to embody is in fact anathema to their own profession. The narrow minded lack of vision probably has Behncke rolling in his grave.

Just about anything is impossible if that's what you choose to believe. The opposite is also true.

Best wishes.

 

[Tim47SIP]

Ya! What he said! Thats what I meant! Hope things are a little clearer now. P.S. Excellent post!

 

[Draginass]

Well reasoned logic, but insufficient practicality. The devil is in the details.

What is AMR's incentive to merge AE and AA when they enjoy 12 more years of status quo on AE ALPA's contract? AE ALPA has NO leverage whatsoever and AMR won't even counter-offer APA's proposal to consolidate. If AMR's even SLIGHTLY interested, it doesn't show.

Until it is cheaper to operate together (and STAYS cheaper), it's not going to happen. How can the unions make it cheaper, without impacting compensation? I can't see how AE guys can work for any less compensation than they do now. The company knows that the mainline union will push very hard to raise the small jet compensation very steeply and very fast, and would have much more leverage than an AE union. No incentive here for AMR.

Do you really expect the mainline unions to say, "sure," we'll acquiese our scope on ASM and jets, AND we'll cheapen our contract enough to make it worthwhile for the company consolidate? I guess then, mainline wouldn't have to worry about the company attacking their scope . . . because the union would have already given it away!

Also, assuming that we want the seniority list to be linear, that means that ALL new hires will be forced to enter at the bottom at VERY low pay scales regardless of their previous experience. Since you were talking about having defacto C scales within the contract, would you be receptive to allowing highly experienced new hire aviators to jump bypass the entry-level 1000hr/300multi CFIs? If not, I doubt many military aviators would even consider a company where they would have to work for very low compensation for maybe a VERY long time. That company would not compete for the best people. UNLESS, compensation for the small jets in-line with that of the mainline. (retirement, schedule, work rules, etc). But according to your thesis, the small jet guys would be on a sub-scale sanctioned by the mainline contract. Are you really implying that AE RJ pay and benefits are proportional to that of mainline and not a defacto sub-scale???

Pardon me for being frank, but it seems that the real agenda and main benefit that a single list presents is to regional guys is an automatic entry into mainline.

If the AMR though this was good for them, they'd be asking for it instead of scoffing at it. What that tells me is somebody's going to have to give something up to extract it from AMR as a trade-off concession. Who's that gonna be, AE ALPA or APA?

You haven't convinced me of the economic incentive for the company to consolidate nor of the cost/benefit trade-off that mainline pilots would have.

I wanna believe, but you've got to give me a reason, and so far, you haven't even come close.

 

[Tim47SIP]

Draginbutt wrote "Since you were talking about having defacto C scales within the contract, would you be receptive to allowing highly experienced new hire aviators to jump bypass the entry-level 1000hr/300multi CFIs? If not, I doubt many military aviators would even consider a company where they would have to work for very low compensation for maybe a VERY long time. "

Now there is a good reason to fight the issue! What a crock of crap. You have just shown your true colors. You are more worried about your freinds not in the company than the guys employed by the company. I have heard this argument before and it is really a non issue. Before you get your feathers riled up, I am retired military and almost half of the carrier I work for are ex mil. Some of them very highly experienced 15/16/P3/B52/14/18/P3/141/C5/G3/G5 etc. individuals. Some of them are reserves with lower hours, some were to old for Mainline to be interested, or like me, retired or separated at the wrong time when the mainline hiring slowdown started. Mater of fact, many of the non mil guys have very impressive credentials that I have flown with. Some of them were laid off or furloughed at the wrong time and have an abundant amount of hours. So to get back to why it is a non issue is because these freinds of yours that have the hours required to fly for the majors start at the bottom like everyone else does, and can bid for the heavy equipement. He will bypass all of those 1000 hour CFI's and anyone else that doesn't have the required time. Remember, it will take a lowtimer 5-7 years to get the time needed to bid up. Your compadre will get to go fairly fast providing the mainline needs pilots. I am also sure that he wont be bellitled to much to have to fly with guys like us regional slime knowing he can bid up as soon as a slot opens up.

Additionally, the one list thing is a hard sell to management because it is potentially dangerous for them. But as surplus stated, if both mainline and WO's get to gether and come up with a vialble option that will help out management and the pilot groups, it could possibly be accomplished (although ALPA would probably block any attempt to talk directly to the mainline MEC concerning this issue). Why should it? Because it will help all of the parties to include APA and ALPA. Mainline gets better job protection, management gets flexibility concerning aircraft, markets, and caps and the regional slum guys get a vision for the future. It will still alow your AF buddies to get where they want to go, and the company becomes profitable. The cons, guess who gets the first furlough notices! Not the mainline guys, you will still have a job. This is a two way street here, you want furlough protection and the regional guys want a future with a viable company.

 

[surplus1]

Re: Dragin ...

Originally posted by Draginass Well reasoned logic, but insufficient practicality. The devil is in the details.

Practicality is a matter of opinion. Such opinions are often jaundiced be preconceived ideas/attitudes. It is always possible to nay-say those solutions that might result in effects that we do not prefer and yes; the devil IS in the details.

What is AMR's incentive to merge AE and AA when they enjoy 12 more years of status quo on AE ALPA's contract? AE ALPA has NO leverage whatsoever and AMR won't even counter-offer APA's proposal to consolidate. If AMR's even SLIGHTLY interested, it doesn't show.

At present, AMR has no incentive to merge AE and AA. Assuming that a "merger" of the entities is not required, one need not focus on existing incentives. I would suggest focusing on removing obstacles to the concept of a singular seniority list by providing a structure that will remove at least the economic objections that the parent may have. Once those no longer exist they still will not have a particular incentive to proceed, but you won't be banging heads against a brick wall either.

There is also no incentive for AMR to want the various escalations and cost increases that your union proposes for AA pilots either. That however, does not prevent or even curtail you from making ever increasing contractual demands. You want it and that, in your minds, justifies your proposals. A SSL is NOT something that you want. What you DO want is all the benefits of what an SSL would bring, provided you have no responsibility for the cost. That will not happen. Sooner or later you will have to decide which is most advantageous for you. At present, you believe you can handle it with scope. I respectfully submit that has been less than successful. The corporation is doing exactly what it wants to do and I think will continue on that course. A change in tactics on your part may well be in order.

Until it is cheaper to operate together (and STAYS cheaper), it's not going to happen. How can the unions make it cheaper, without impacting compensation? I can't see how AE guys can work for any less compensation than they do now. The company knows that the mainline union will push very hard to raise the small jet compensation very steeply and very fast, and would have much more leverage than an AE union. No incentive here for AMR.

What you say here has a lot of truth in it. There is no guarantee that operating costs will remain cheaper in perpetuity, but that is true either way you go. In the case of AE, the absurd 16-year agreement that ALPA produced is an immense obstacle. While unfortunate for the Eagle pilots, that circumstance does not exist in the other carriers with this problem. So far it is unique to AMR.

The only real pressure on mainline pilots to raise the compensation of the small jet steeply or rapidly is your personal greed. This should not be a factor unless the mainline pilots plan to occupy their seats and remove the pilots currently flying them. By the way, I believe that is precisely what you would like to do. I see the recent APA proposal as nothing more than a thinly veiled attempt by AA pilots to transfer Eagle jet flying to AA and leave the Eagle pilots up the proverbial creek without a paddle. Personally, I call it dirty pool.

Do you really expect the mainline unions to say, "sure," we'll acquiese our scope on ASM and jets, AND we'll cheapen our contract enough to make it worthwhile for the company consolidate? I guess then, mainline wouldn't have to worry about the company attacking their scope . . . because the union would have already given it away!

The issue of scope is not a factor in the equation. Scope that protects all AMR flying against incursion from non-AMR owned carriers would continue to be necessary and remain in place. What you really need to eliminate is code sharing, both domestic and international. I am very much afraid that will cost you far more than consolidation with Eagle might. That sir, is the real Genie that you guys let out of the bottle.

Truth is I don't expect the mainline unions to do anything. They will continue the present stance even if it winds up burying them. This problem did not suddenly come into existence. The only interest in a solution being manifested by mainline pilots today is based exclusively on self-service of their parochial interests. You're being furloughed and if you can find a way to prevent that by taking the flying from the regionals, you are quite prepared to do so without compassion. Rhetoric about concern for "the profession" is hog wash and phony. You are concerned for yourselves, nothing more.

Also, assuming that we want the seniority list to be linear, that means that ALL new hires will be forced to enter at the bottom at VERY low pay scales regardless of their previous experience. Since you were talking about having defacto C scales within the contract, would you be receptive to allowing highly experienced new hire aviators to jump bypass the entry-level 1000hr/300multi CFIs? If not, I doubt many military aviators would even consider a company where they would have to work for very low compensation for maybe a VERY long time. That company would not compete for the best people. UNLESS, compensation for the small jets in-line with that of the mainline. (retirement, schedule, work rules, etc). But according to your thesis, the small jet guys would be on a sub-scale sanctioned by the mainline contract. Are you really implying that AE RJ pay and benefits are proportional to that of mainline and not a defacto sub-scale???

Here we part company and frankly, I find most of that argument specious. To address one of your questions directly I would NOT, under any circumstance, allow a new hire to bypass anyone on the seniority list.

If military aviators were to choose not to apply, that would be their problem. I don't see you giving deference to the superior experience of senior TWA pilots that are about to join your list. A majority of them are being placed below your most junior pilots. While I deeply appreciate the service of military pilots to our country (after all I was one of them) I do not see them as having any superior right of application or employment and honestly don't care whether they choose to apply or not. I most certainly see no reason why regional pilots should defer to military pilots not yet employed by the airline.

In the real world, the particular airline would be able to attract the best pilots just as it does today. If supply and demand required the airline to recruit pilots with the experience levels you reference, then it would happen. It would not be new to the industry and those flight hours have little to do with a pilot's qualification for the position. That whole idea is a myth and we ought to dispense with it.

AE compensation is not currently proportional to that of AA. The same is true in other major/regional relationships. Yes, the sub-scale would be maintained initially in one of my concepts (I didn't list all of them). There is a price to pay for everything. With time, it would eventually level off. It is necessary to decide whether the advantages outweigh the costs.

If mainline pilots want the security that elimination of alter ego airlines would provide they will have to pay a price. By the same token, if regional pilots want the career progression opportunities that consolidation would give to them, they too will have to share the burden. However, to think that the only beneficiaries of a joining together would be the regional pilots is little more than a deliberate attempt to obscure the facts. We BOTH stand to gain.

Pardon me for being frank, but it seems that the real agenda and main benefit that a single list presents to regional guys is an automatic entry into mainline.

I want you to be frank. I'm sure you've noticed that I am trying to be candid as well. I agree with you, in that part of the agenda of the regional pilots is access to the mainline opportunities. I call that career progression and, as I said earlier, it will have a cost. Another part of their agenda is job security. Now what is the agenda of the mainline pilots? How about protection of the status quo and job security? That too will have a cost. If mainline pilots continue to frustrate the opportunities of regional pilots, eventually the regional airlines will grow enough to directly challenge the jobs of the mainline pilots in a bidding war that you cannot win. There has to be a better way.

If the AMR though this was good for them, they'd be asking for it instead of scoffing at it. What that tells me is somebody's going to have to give something up to extract it from AMR as a trade-off concession. Who's that gonna be, AE ALPA or APA?

You are correct. The same applies to Delta and the others. The answer to your question is: ALL of the above! No free rides for anyone.

You haven't convinced me of the economic incentive for the company to consolidate nor of the cost/benefit trade-off that mainline pilots would have.

Candidly, I didn't expect that I would. However, I have engaged you in dialogue and I see that as progress. Nevertheless, I am very aware that "a man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still."

I wanna believe, but you've got to give me a reason, and so far, you haven't even come close.

Patience my friend and remember: Rome wasn't built in a day. Thank you for the discussion.
Best regards,