Why I hate MESA!!

[OneTuffGuy]

lets think why do I hate mesa hmmm? Well for when there is my avtar and I truly believe they did bend over for management. Mesa has single handily ruined contracts for the rest of the industry. Thanks alot MESA I hope you are proud of yourselves...

 

[grog_sit_reserv]

Yikes you guys slay me. You expect me to look at a thread like this and not post up something flammable? Machdog this thread you started is flame bait and besides, you said "Have Fun."

My personal favorite was machdog's:


"Hey grog I hope with that attitude you are not speaking for the rest of your pilot group, if you are I have a word for you scum@##$bag!! Enjoy the pay for the rest of your career!!"


Hey Machdog1, I only speak for myself here at Mesa and to tell the truth I fill pretty screwed. But, with nothing better out there I pretty much have to stick it out til I can get on elsewhere.

For the rest of you, sorry for taking this thread too lightly; just a little weary of being everyones' reason that the airline biz ailing.

Also would like to say that the comment about Mesa putting everyone out of biz was inappropriate and out of line, especially in today's climate, for that I apologize.

Please see my previous posts. I told Whiskey to vote down their TA, I told ACA to vote down their TA and I asked CHQ guys where to send the money for the strike fund.

I think you're all taking me a little too seriously.

 

[avrodriver]

Grog's bottomline from a few posts back:

"Bottom line is this, I hope Mesa is able to put all of you out of biz with its lower rates to enhance my job security."


We're all thrilled that guys like you have our back. AD

 

[Brett Hull]

Why I hate all of you

o.k., I don't really hate you guys. I don't even know you. But.....

lets think why do I hate mesa hmmm? Well for when there is my avtar and I truly believe they did bend over for management. Mesa has single handily ruined contracts for the rest of the industry. Thanks alot MESA I hope you are proud of yourselves...

Do you know who bent over for management and have ruined the industry? Every single one of you! All of you who said "I'm only worth $17,000." Management knows as long as there are people such as yourselves who will sell your soul to fly a shiny jet, they've got you buy the balls. You've got no one to blame but yourselves.

 

[hhab]

"I distinctly remember having a conversation with a fairly high time CFI in 1992 who was thinking of going to Mesa and was talking about the PFT they had"


Nope, Mesa never had a PFT program.

Sorry to hear if ACA looses some of its future growth. I am not very familiar with how ACA is run, (other commuters / airlines as well ) matter of fact, it takes most of my time to keeping track with whats happening here @ Mesa.
For a person that stands outside looking into politics @ ACA I must wonder how the relationship between ACA and UAL has gone the last 6 months, and is going, in consideration the lawsuits ACA filed against UAL. Is ACA playing hardball with a bankrupt company because they ( ACA ) are the largest UAL commuter and are in the belief that UAL is not capable to replace them? I see certain simulareties between UAL/ACA and what happened between Delta/Comair some years back. Majors do not want a single feeder anymore. They want multiple spread over their entire route-network. The Comair strike thought them that. Get used to it.
Comair was able to strike and still able to keep growing (even with CHQ entering the filed) but still they are paying the price with less growth.
From what I can see ( and my limited knowledge ), ACA never had a change to keep the planned growth even with their agreed paycut. So now ACA pilots makes less money and most likely growth.
You can blame Mesas new contract as much as you want if it makes you feel better, but please do some research withing your company , your codeshare partner, and the company you are blaiming.
We all "love" scape goats, Some Comair pilots uses CHQ, Airlines uses Commuters, RJDF uses ALPA, The British uses the French, The Tuties tribes uses the Hutus, Hitler used the Jews and most commuter pilots uses Mesa.........

Our "loved" Mesa contract was a result of mainly 4 factors: -Our CEO and the 3 ( or so ) % of Mesa pilots that helped starting Freedom - The condition of our Partners - The economy in general at time of negotiation, and hardly any leverage on our side.
The outcome was either to take ( very ) small improvement in our current contract + great scope / successorship language +recall of 120+ CCAir pilots, or watch the continued rapid growth of Freedom, (that had NOT a contact,) and a very remote chance of being released to strike within the next year or so.
I was one of the yes-voters but I might had voted differently if we had same preferential hiring agreements most other commuter ( that ended up with good contracts ) had in the good late 90s/early 00's........
It has always been my impression Scope has very little value among commuter-pilots posting here. Is it because of the lack of it among the commuters or because you do not see the immediate hard cash value of it? CHQ, ASA/Comair, Mesaba/PinnA/Bigsky.... Any comments?

 

[hhab]

"Do you know who bent over for management and have ruined the industry? Every single one of you! All of you who said "I'm only worth $17,000." Management knows as long as there are people such as yourselves who will sell your soul to fly a shiny jet, they've got you buy the balls. You've got no one to blame but yourselves."



I work for this "horrible"company called Mesa. last year I made 78K. One day I have to "sell out" for 1'st year pay @ AirTran, Southwest, Fedex or UPS..........

 

[avrodriverj85]

Hey Typhoon,

Being from SoCal I remember when Mesa bought WestAir.. and how if you wanted a job there you had to pony up the $10k. Seems like the managment team over there has always been a leech on the pilots neck someway or another.

Don't forget those other 2 great SoCal carriers from the late 80's; PSA and AirCal, that got swallowed by arch enemy USAir and AA.

I wonder how those guys felt to see their friendly hometown airlines swallowed by those two behemouths. Wonder what they are thinking now?

 

[ChinaClipper]

To the Self rightous....

ARENT ALL THE REGIONALS REPLACING MAINLINE FLYING WITH LOWER COST REGIONAL FLYING???? YESSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Lowering the bar? YESSSSSSS!!!!! Anyone with whipsawing going on by managers? YESSSSSS! Are we all screwing up because instead of fighting greedy managers we are finger pointing about how one group smells worse than the other as we stand in the sewage? YEEEEEESSSSSSS! The two faced nature of the original post is amazing.....BTW the jumpseat is ALAWAYS open, Part 135 included on my "No Voting" airplane.....unless you are a scab...

 

[avrodriverj85]

ChinaClipper

What has ALPA done to stop the whipsaw? My problem with national is that they can't seem to see 5 years down the road, much less 50 feet in front of their face. Meanwhile - J.O. and his types are running around in packs coming up with ways to stick it to the labor groups while lining their pockets and securing gold parachutes. It's the same patterns, but ALPA appears helpless.

ALPA cannot theoretically back mainline and it's regional partner equally or fairly - therefore creating a conflict of interest.

Just my .02 cents.

 

[eddie]

CMR was PFT in the mid 90s. Even after they dropped the PFT, they still required something like $350 just to interview (that was in 1998).

 

[stillaboo]

ChinaClipper
My problem with national is that they can't seem to see 5 years down the road, much less 50 feet in front of their face.

ALPA already made the big error of separating flying into regional and mainline. Mainliners should have embraced regional flying as their own rather than relegating it to a 'stepping-stone' to the 'real flying'. Everyone on 1 list, more bargaining power, no ability for one group to take flying from the other. I know EGL and AA guys would appreciate a stess-free day of 1-list w/o all the side agreements and exceptions that have drivien a wedge b/t them.

We pilots are our own worst enemies.

-Boo!

 

[jbDC9]

Can you read??

Being from SoCal I remember when Mesa bought WestAir.. and how if you wanted a job there you had to pony up the $10k. Seems like the managment team over there has always been a leech on the pilots neck someway or another.

Hey avrodriver, did you even read the thread before you posted this paragraph? Several people have said quite clearly that Mesa was never PFT and here you go spouting off that they were.

Okay, listen close, I'll say it again, Mesa was not doing PFT, never did! I was there from '93 to '96 and did not pay for my training.

Didja get it that time?

 

[avrodriver]

Make sure your b*tching at the right guy, I believe your after "avrodriver85"..........I would NEVER say anything that anyone disagreed with =)...........plain old AD

 

[Piedmont DHC-8]

Air **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**ter

I don't really have a problem with the Mesa Pilots except a few of those that are really idiots in places like (remember a go around is not an option) Roanoke Virginia for example. I cannot stand dickhead Orenstein. If I saw him in an alley some night I would kick the living **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** out of em. I Hate the Mesa Corporation and every time I see Air shuttle (air **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**ter) I want to puke. Any body see that Mesa beech 1900 in CLT the other day. Looks like somebody ate a corn burrito and a grape slurpy and puked it all up on an airplane. I guess your corpoate colors really do show your corporate culture.

 

[Piedmont DHC-8]

Air Sh!tter

The stuff that was all censored out was Air Sh!tter

 

[typhoonpilot]

If it looks and smells like PFT then it is PFT.

About the Mesa Pilot
Development Program
"Learn to fly with us, then fly for us"

Mesa Air Group and its collegiate partner, San Juan College offer a unique approach to becoming an airline pilot. The Aviation Degree Program was established in 1989 for the sole purpose of grooming First Officers for the company. In this way, Mesa can train pilots to its standards. The airline knows who

the pilots are and the quality of training they have received. The program ensures Mesa that their new pilots have already been trained in the complex aircraft they will be flying.

Designed as an ab initio (from the beginning) program, this training takes pilots from no time or very low time through their private, instrument, commercial, and multi-engine ratings, first officer training, and Part 121 checkride in less than two years! You will obtain your certificates and ratings in addition to receiving jet systems training designed to prepare you for the flight line.


As Part 141 schools, San Juan College's program meets rigid FAA guidelines for their pilot training curricula
All training is geared to meet Mesa Airlines' hiring standards
You will be qualified to pass your Part 121 checkride by graduation
Upon completion of the program, successful graduates go through the Mesa hiring process. Those who are hired then go directly into the right seat as First Officers. Average flight time at the point of hire is 300 hours!
Since the events of September 11, typical upgrade time from First Officer to Captain is two years.
Today's graduates could fly any one of Mesa's aircraft: the Beech 1900, Dash 8/200 series, CRJs, or ERJs. The possibilities are exciting!

I still believe they had a program in place in the early 90s where even experienced pilots had to pay. I think Florida Gulf did as well and they were a division of Mesa.

Typhoonpilot

 

[KY_Pilot]

Hey Bear...

you said....

MESA pilots are pilots just like all of us. and we should appreciate all that we have in common.

No sir, I sincerely disagree. As one of the many that walked for 89 days, you and your type are not like us.

 

[stillaboo]

If it looks and smells like PFT then it is PFT.

About the Mesa Pilot
Development Program

The issue of PFT and MAPD has already come up on this board many times. It has been determined by the board consensus that it neither looks like PFT nor smells like PFT, however, I still recall some sort of PFT with Mesa in the early 90s (maybe just Florida Gulf, doesn't anyone have the facts on this?), just like many other airlines at the time.

Most people would consider paying $ for an interview to be sketchy too, Typhoon, and my understanding from posts on other forums is that your current carrier doesn't pay for your ticket to test your desire for the job. Just an observation, nothing more.

I believe CMR had PFT in the early 90's too, KY, so, Mesa is no different than any other group of pilots, other than they are the only ones to negotiate a pay increase in the last year, and are still paid less than you CMR guys. Different strokes for different folks.

-Boo!

 

[JBcrjca]

I interviewed with Florida Gulf back in summer of '92, and at that time there was no mention of any pay for training. If I had been hired, I would have gone to class at JAX without putting up any cash. Except for the usual hotel/meal expenses of course. It seems as if most of the regionals were PFT in the early-mid '90s, so I don't see how Mesa can be bashed for such a thing. At least they didn't do the FlightSafety program like everyone else. Every time FSI added a carrier to that program, I crossed off another company on my resume list. I guess it saved me a lot of money on postage costs for mailing resumes.

 

[stillaboo]

Re: Can you read??

Maybe jbDC9 had it right from the begining? Sorry to post crappy info.

Okay, listen close, I'll say it again, Mesa was not doing PFT, never did!

 

[Catbird]

Jeffery Dahmer wrote-
" I interviewed with Florida Gulf back in summer of '92, and at that time there was no mention of any pay for training. If I had been hired, I would have gone to class at JAX without putting up any cash."

Yea, I bet you were eager to fly them airliners for welfare qualifying pay and 22day lines. You could tell mommy and daddy the 30k they spent to get you a job was great. Even had a nice costume with interchangeable wings for one airline to another. Just depended upon which group of union pilots they were attempting to lowball.

Mesa- dba-Florida Gulf was established in the Florida market to break a imminent strike form the ALPA pilots at Henson/Piedmont in the early 90's. Larry Risley and Usair had the strike breakers ready with Florida Gulf if the Union pilots struck. These fine aviators are flying the Sky's as Mesa CRJ Ca today. They always profess ignorance or refute the Truth but the Truth is in the establishment of Florida Gulf / Mesa in the Commuter ranks as a strike breaking, low cost, screw the profession group of **sholes. Babbit welcomed them into Alpa. He was paving the way to reintroduce the scabs from Continental years later and knew they would appreciate socializing with fellow scabs.

 

[typhoonpilot]

Boo:

Okay, I'll admit, maybe I am wrong about the PFT at Mesa in the early 90s and am confusing it with their PDP. I'll also admit I wasn't sure about Florida Gulf, it must have been they required seniority resignation, but something made me cross them off my list as well.

Now, as for my current carrier, you are correct, they don't pay for a ticket to the interview. However, they put you up in a five star hotel for four nights and pay for your meals the entire time you are there. Then when you get hired you start on full pay from the day you get on an airplane to come to class, which is usually four or five days before the class date. The ticket to the interview is something of a test to see if you are really interested. It is a serious airline with massive expansion plans and they can't be bothered interviewing people who are not serious about coming to work for them.

It still remains that Mesa Air Group, notice I didn't say Mesa pilots, put WestAir out of business and adversely affected their pilots. That is the reason I hate Mesa which is the title of this thread.

Typhoonpilot

 

[JBcrjca]

Hey Catbird, what's with your attitude? And the Jeffery Dahmer reference? You lost me on that one. I was merely illustrating the point that FG did not have PFT in the summer of '92 when I interviewed, and you start bashing me?? What a numbnutz.

I don't have to justify myself to anyone, but in this case I'll take a stab at it. I didn't have a rich mommy and daddy to pay $30K for my ratings. I started when I was 15 and got each license/rating as my age and $$ would allow. I built time by instructing, ferry flying, a bunch of renting, whatever time I could get. Eventually I was flying single-pilot 135 freight in a Baron. The industry was in the crapper in the early '90s, I remember it very well. I didn't really want to work for FG for several reasons, but interviews were hard to get back then. If nothing else, it was good practice for future interviews. I'm sure that most guys on this board would have gone to the interview as well. I consider myself lucky to have been turned down, and I ended up flying the Baron for a total of 3 years. I'm pretty sure I've paid my dues.

But the plot thickens...in late '93 I got hired by Allegheny, checked out on the 1900 based in BGM. I was at the bottom of the seniority list. After 4 months and 30 hrs of flying, we heard rumors about being overstaffed. Of course, I was one of the first guys to get the call from the chief pilot letting me know that I was being furloughed. But the main reason for the furloughs was that Mesa/FG was buying many of the routes/assets of ALG. All of the 1900s and SD360s went to FG. Only the Dash 8s remained. So there we were, furloughed apprentice ALPA members... some were hired by FG, others chose to go elsewhere. I chose the latter. ALPA did send us furlough-assistance packets filled with useless outdated information... very nice of them. Shortly thereafter, the 9 ALG 1900s were sold to Ameriflight, and the SD360s were disposed of. I guess FG just wanted the routes and facilities, but none of the fleet.

My point is this, Catbird...maybe you should think about the facts behind the story before you start spouting off like that. I'm guessing that you work for one of the USAir WOs and you were threatened by Mesa/FG and you still hold a grudge. Maybe you should visit a professional to help you deal with your anger, or just spank your inner child.

My apologies to all for the length of this post.

 

[stillaboo]

So, I got the essence of FG. Anyone know why 'Desert Sun' was started? Another Mesa Air Group subsidiary, I believe they had F-100's, and assume they were in and around PHX in the early 90's. All I know is most of the guys who went there were intergrated back into the Mesa list and lost some seniority in the deal (they were all really senior at Mesa). Most of the guys who went to Desert Sun and stayed with Mesa (fools) were the first guys to volunteer to go over to Freedom. Like I said, fools. Anyone know why it was started, and why it failed?

-Boo!

 

[wscrj]

F-70's

Actually, they were F-70's. Up to 6 at one time. You are correct, the guys that went over to Desert Sun lost a bunch of seniority when they were merged back in as part of MESA's first CBA.

THey were PHX based.

 

[bobbysamd]

Mesa liars

Once upon a time there was a good little commuter airline in California called WestAir . . . . Can't remember the exact date, but lets call it a couple of years later, Mesa Air buys WestAir. WestAir is a unionized carrier with decent wages for a regional. Mesa, at that time, is a non-unionized carrier whose new hire pilots must pay $10,000 or so to be a first officer on a Beech 1900 at crappy wages. Slowly observers see Mesa Beech 1900s flying WestAir routes in Southern California. To make a long story short this cancer spreads until WestAir folds in the late 1990s, a shell of it's former self. All because of Mesa . . . . That is why I hate Mesa, not necessarily the pilots, but definitely the company.

(emphasis added)

Good history lesson, especially about WestAir/United Express. My first regional interview was there.

I interviewed at Mesa in 1990, about two months after my WestAir interview. I was rejected. Ten years ago, I had suffered a termination from a subsequent job. I applied to MAPD as an instructor, was interviewed, and was hired. I disclosed fully my problem at my previous job on my app and at my interview. I was very excited about being hired by MAPD, because the real deal for MAPD instructors back then was being sent to ground school to become 1900 FOs. I thought that after five-plus years of futility in trying to get a regional airline job that I would get my chance.

Not so. After I had moved one-thousand miles and reported to Corporate, I was asked for a five-year job history. I provided all details of my previous job and termination, which, again, I explained fully to the Chief Instructor and Gary Risley, the corporate counsel, at my interview. The personnel lady then said that I might not be eligible for hire at all because of my termination. She said it was Mesa's policy not to hire pilots who suffered terminations. Shock was not the word, especially after I had just moved a thousand miles for a job I thought I had. The personnel lady then went back and talked to her boss, and everything was straightened out, to the extent that I would be hired at MAPD.

The Chief Instructor told me a day or two later that I could work for MAPD but I could not be considered for hire as a Mesa Airlines pilot because of my termination. He said he was not aware of a terminated pilot no-hire policy. To this day I do not believe him. And, surely, the Corporate Counsel must have known of this policy.

This experience, among other reasons, is why I do not like Mesa.

I know I push MAPD quite a bit on these forums. I like the program because of the potential and training it offers for new pilots. Students pay a bunch of money for their training, but it is not P-F-T because they earn ratings and a degree. I certainly would not recommend Mesa for a long-term career because of my experience there and for reasons others above enumerated. I realize that Frank O. (intentional) and not the Risleys are in charge, but, as the expression goes, the more things change the more they stay the same.

 

[skydrvr]

Mgmt that does not care. And then those that will work for free to a point where an industry standard that was fought long a hard for by an unforgiving airline known as Comair now means nothing. Thanks Mesa for making our jobs that much easier for a lessor wage!

 

[bobbysamd]

<Sigh>

[T]he lowest seniority Freedom guy . . . was hired at Skywest and put some derogatory stuff up in the breakroom while there . . . Sounds like a real winner, huh?

It's unbelievable how the least deserving so often get the most breaks. I tried for years to get a SkyWest interview. That would have been an almost-perfect career situation for me. Had Mesa worked out for me, it would have been a good situation, too.

B/c he was an MAPD instructor . . . he knew about Freedom, and went there. Freedom hired him on the spot . . . . Mesa has interviews and would never have let this guy work with them, but JO was perfectly happy with Freedom doing it.

(emphasis added)

Clearly, when he needs them, Frank O. likes those who crawl on their bellies instead of those who stand up and walk on their two feet.

There was a certain Mesa check airman and DE whose name I spotted on the Freedom list when it came out. What a surprise. <big sigh> I will not give names on a public board, but MAPD ATP trainees and long-time Mesa pilots will know who I mean.

 

[colored_airman]

No, I dont hate Mesa but I pitty the fool
And I will destroy any airline who tries to take what I got.

My prediction is PAIN !!!!

 

[WhiteCloud]

No, I dont hate Mesa but I pitty the fool
And I will destroy any airline who tries to take what I got.

My prediction is PAIN !!!!

"Remember where you came from. Remember what it took to get you here. You remember what he did to you last time right?"