Why hire military over your competition?

[Dan Roman]

Sure, but they are typically the ones involved in the accidents.

Ahh the internet, anyone can just make up anything they want......my experience with non college educated pilots is that they tend to be well above average sticks. The reason being is they tend to have a background of wanting to fly at an early age and they started right after high school. A couple of the best pilots I ever flew with started flying Twin Beech's right out of high school and progressed to the legacy airlines.
That said military pilots are just as good as civilian pilots (or vice versa). Once you are with an airline it's hard to distinguish.

 

[dicko]

I'm curious what type of training you are doing? At my airline I can't imagine our training failure rate is above 1%.

That's an interesting question isn't it ? Yip is the Standards Manager. Therefore he sets the tone and the standards in training. He's responsible for that wash out rate. He's also ex military.

Quite the conundrum. But at least he looks after his people, which is after all, "the golden rule". Unless you're not providing them with the comprehensive training that they need to pass. Then it's really about gold and rules.

 

[pilotyip]

That's an interesting question isn't it ? Yip is the Standards Manager. Therefore he sets the tone and the standards in training. He's responsible for that wash out rate. He's also ex military.

Quite the conundrum. But at least he looks after his people, which is after all, "the golden rule". Unless you're not providing them with the comprehensive training that they need to pass. Then it's really about gold and rules.

I suppose you might look at it that way, but you have to remember who we are, we are a bottom feeder and we do not attract astronaut candidates. There are always people hired who are not as experienced as we would like, so we take a chance on them. We have fairly high standards and if you do not met them you do not complete the program.

How many 135 on-demand cargo operators train and check under 121? How many have LOFT as part of initial and recurrent. We really try to do it right. Over the 17 years I have been here we have hired 53 ex-military guys, one failed training, he was a VFR only helo driver. IFR was just too much. We have hired over 450 civilian background pilots, of that 29 have been eliminated before the end of IOE. Most of the that is in the DA-20. In the hiring bust times of 2009/2010, we hired very experienced guys, no failures.


Our training program bends over backwards to try and get peopel through but some are just not ready for the jump to 121 jet operations.

I think the real proof of our standards is the list of places our piltios have gone after flying at JUS, SWA, DAL, AAL, UAL, FedEx, UPS, NJ, JB, Atlas, etc.

 

[el raton]

Are customer skillz unique to 135? I'm sure the hundreds of 121 furloughees post 9-11 did just fine at Netjets and the other frax.

As would 135 and 91k pilots at a 121 operation...it's not rocket science.

 

[el raton]

Sure, but they are typically the ones involved in the accidents.

That was flame, right?

 

[Daddy]

from my experience, civilian rj people know that management is full of bs and they have seen the games that management plays.

Military people seem to be more believing that management will lead them and take care of them. They haven't experienced the games that management plays.

Management likes obedience and clean slates.

bingo!

 

[Luv2BFlyin]

Quite the conundrum. But at least he looks after his people, which is after all, "the golden rule". Unless you're not providing them with the comprehensive training that they need to pass. Then it's really about gold and rules.

Now, you're not suggesting that a certain airline does not provide comprehensive training and therefore contributes to a higher washout rate? Funny, I've heard the same thing. I did notice that that certain airline is acquiring a few FPT's from "Alteon" (wonder where they are getting those from?) to be available in the training center later this year (when another airline no longer needs them). BTW, a female was promoted in the training dept., oh the humanity! Somebody is moving into the latter part of the 20th century .

 

[waveflyer]

Piltios is pretty funny yip

 

[pilotyip]

Piltios is pretty funny yip

Funny, not all all, it is a term of special designation for those pilots who have moved on in their careers to place like SWA. BTW Must have been a decent post if wavy can only find fault in speeling

 

[CCDiscoB]

Not from what I've seen, if for no other reason than there aren't that many military guys available anymore.

What?? Where did you get that tidbit from? There are plenty of military guys available.

 

[flyboyike]

What?? Where did you get that tidbit from? There are plenty of military guys available.

Define "plenty"

 

[inline]

Here we go again..........................

 

[inline]

Sure, but they are typically the ones involved in the accidents.

You have no proof to back that up. You just made that up.

 

[dicko]

Now, you're not suggesting that a certain airline does not provide comprehensive training and therefore contributes to a higher washout rate? Funny, I've heard the same thing. I did notice that that certain airline is acquiring a few FPT's from "Alteon" (wonder where they are getting those from?) to be available in the training center later this year (when another airline no longer needs them). BTW, a female was promoted in the training dept., oh the humanity! Somebody is moving into the latter part of the 20th century .

I was actually referring to some lower tier cargo operators vs Majors etc. The former sometimes have a somewhat old school training program. Often backed by antiquated attitudes.

An amusing example - my Lear 23 check ride and training was all done in the airplane, by the boss who was also the examiner. He had giant hands that looked like raw steak. When he yelled saliva was splattered on the instruments and windshield. The V1 cut was interesting.

Yip did bring up a relevant point though - their new hires often have more 'varied backgrounds'.

 

[livin'thesim]

Well, I don't fault lower-tier companies for providing training that does not meet Legacy-121 quality. The money to do it is just not there.

So, you have to rely more heavily on hiring quality people. But the flip side of this coin is that with a small pilot pool, it is easier to be more selective.

It all comes down to safety record, and some of these "low tier" carriers have surprisingly good safety records.

 

[livin'thesim]

Also,

Civilian pilots seem to be quite OK with saying that "it all depends on the pilot" as to who is "better".

Many military pilots seem to have a deep and abiding need to be "better" than civilian pilots. This strikes me as a manifestation of some sort of insecurity. Such is the nature of elitism.

I always enjoyed my years teaching in sims. It was especially delicious to watch a cocky grad from, oh, say, Embry Riddle get his a-- handed to him by some guy who learned to fly at the local flight school, and may have had less total time.

The insecure man will try to ride the coattails of his training pedigree, or whatever. But the man who knows himself will put his skills and knowledge to the test in a fair comparison, and fearlessly.

Put me in a fighter aircraft, and the worst fighter pilot in the military will defeat me.

Put a fighter pilot in a transport category airplane and start failing systems in low weather, and who would you rather have at wheel? Him, or a 10,000 hour regional captain?

If you say a fresh off the boat military guy, then you're lying.

 

[pave driver]

As an Air Force pilot I can assure everyone I am the best pilot on the planet. And I am certainly far superior in every way to others that flew for the other branches of service.

 

[DCAA320]

As an Air Force pilot I can assure everyone I am the best pilot on the planet. And I am certainly far superior in every way to others that flew for the other branches of service.

Is that why you guys have 12,000 foot runways?

 

[DCAA320]

Put a fighter pilot in a transport category airplane and start failing systems in low weather, and who would you rather have at wheel? Him, or a 10,000 hour regional captain?

If you say a fresh off the boat military guy, then you're lying.

After training it's a toss up dude.

I have landed in zero zero conditions, you have not, not counting Cat III auto pilot.

 

[pave driver]

Is that why you guys have 12,000 foot runways?

The long runways are an excuse for more "required" real estate to build our golf courses.

 

[Varmint]

Also,

Civilian pilots seem to be quite OK with saying that "it all depends on the pilot" as to who is "better".

Many military pilots seem to have a deep and abiding need to be "better" than civilian pilots. This strikes me as a manifestation of some sort of insecurity. Such is the nature of elitism.

I always enjoyed my years teaching in sims. It was especially delicious to watch a cocky grad from, oh, say, Embry Riddle get his a-- handed to him by some guy who learned to fly at the local flight school, and may have had less total time.

The insecure man will try to ride the coattails of his training pedigree, or whatever. But the man who knows himself will put his skills and knowledge to the test in a fair comparison, and fearlessly.

Put me in a fighter aircraft, and the worst fighter pilot in the military will defeat me.

Put a fighter pilot in a transport category airplane and start failing systems in low weather, and who would you rather have at wheel? Him, or a 10,000 hour regional captain?

If you say a fresh off the boat military guy, then you're lying.

A few points:

#1....your not a military guy
#2....you went to a podunk local flight school
#3....you have low flight time because of being in the sim most of the time
#4....your begging to be hired but are having difficulty even though you think that your skills and "aviation upbringing" are a result of the best route anyone could ever take to a career in aviation....much like the military guys you are complaining about to begin with.

 

[pilotyip]

As an Air Force pilot I can assure everyone I am the best pilot on the planet. And I am certainly far superior in every way to others that flew for the other branches of service.

Then I was told a lie my first day of AOCS when they told me Navy Pilots are the best in the world, you calling my Marine DI a lier? The idea of that scares the crap out of me.

Anyone can be a military pilot, the training is very good, it is just their entrance requirements make it hard to get a slot. Unless of course there is a war going and on and guys like me get a shot.

 

[Wesb737fo]

It's not wether or not the other guy is Military or Civilian... The question is wether or not you are a motard butthead. I've seen both. For example, having some goof ball try to explain V Nav while I'm doing the USA Today crossword.....shut up already....I'm trying to remember the three letter word for what was formerly Tokyo. Dang these things are hard!

 

[densoo]

As an Air Force pilot I can assure everyone I am the best pilot on the planet. And I am certainly far superior in every way to others that flew for the other branches of service.

Good one. Over every door over every pilot training building at every location in every service are the words, "Through these doors pass the best pilots in the world." Like a hyper version of Lake Wobegon except instead of every kid is above average, every pilot is the best in the world. Like kids' sports nowadays. Everyone's a winner and everyone gets a trophy. Airlines can do it too. Here's AA,

https://www.google.com/search?q=thr...port-with-american-airlines-part-4%2F;480;640

 

[SWA Bubba]

It's not wether or not the other guy is Military or Civilian... The question is wether or not you are a motard butthead. I've seen both. For example, having some goof ball try to explain V Nav while I'm doing the USA Today crossword.....shut up already....I'm trying to remember the three letter word for what was formerly Tokyo. Dang these things are hard!

Duh. It's "Edo." Everyone knows that.

Bubba

 

[texman]

I'm not even throwing stones, but just out of curiosity, was the captain involved in the LGA crash ex-military? I heard that captain was the most avoided captain at SWA.

No not throwing stones either but most accidents have been ex military at SWA

 

[scoreboardII]

I would venture to say that 90% of the problem childs and pilots that no one wants to fly with are ex fighter guys. And god forbid if a cloud is on the horizon!

Most of the military guys I fly with are great...but of all the guys on the avoidance bid they are all military...ask any fo....

I think they are hired because flight ops management is all ex military. They keep recruiting their own. Plus they are more likely to be yes men at first when it comes to unions and contracts...they don't stand up to their superiors. And they make serengettis, combovers and rope belts look damn good!

I would counter with 99% of the problem children are pure civilian. My facts stand out more than your facts.





Airlines hire military more because they are cheaper.

Cheaper to train, cheaper to keep, less likely to strike, tax deduction for hiring vets, etc.

That, and as long as management knows pilots from each side will bitch about it beyond eternity means they can keep pilots fighting each other, instead of being unified. and standing up against the man.

 

[Turtle21]

Haven't we resolved this yet? We should be asking if a military pilot or a civilian pilot makes a better management DH pilot.... Go!

 

[Wesb737fo]

Duh. It's "Edo." Everyone knows that.

Bubba

Got it.... Now how about a six letter word for a Jack Hole pilot..... Starts with a K

 

[flyboyike]

Got it.... Now how about a six letter word for a Jack Hole pilot..... Starts with a K

Kernel!