Why hire military over your competition?

[Russ]

If he was flying AF2 he was likely wasn't fresh out of the AF pilot training pipeline but rather towards the mid point or beyond of his career and thus a comparison with a civilian with 1000 hrs is an apples to oranges comparison.

A mid to senior civilian airline guy may also be flying large turbine powered aircraft in worldwide operations. Hiring practices at some cargo places that I know of is to hire low time civ pilots into heavies knowing they will hold on to them for quite awhile. A close friend was hired at Atlas with 2200TT.

 

[SpauldingSmails]

Yep, Russ he was. I believe he put in his 20 years. He retired from a major airline a few years ago.

I was merely pointing out the absurdity of Wave's generalization through his blanket statement that he was was no more qualified than he was when he was flying Cessnas because it's not an FAR121 operation. By the same logic, pilots of foreign airlines or a pilot flying a BBJ under FAR135 or FAR91 subpart F are the equivalent to a pilot with a couple hundred hours of light piston time.

I too have known guys to grab a job at an Atlas or Omni or what have you with fairly low time.

 

[Freight Dawg]

Having been on both sides of the fence, is goes something like this. All the military guys that have flown transport type aircraft are doing the exact same thing that is down on the civilian side...with a few exceptions. It's the same weather, arrivals, departures etc.

Now once you venture into the fighter community, even I have difficulty understanding how a 2000 hour F-16 guy ends up directly at a major. Single pilot, single crew, bombs on target, etc etc etc.

It is just different.

 

[b737jock]

Guys it is not the airlines that are pulling the applicants anymore. If you look AA and Southwest are using the same company and look at the numbers getting the interviews about 80 to 90% military. So it is what the outsourced company finds important. it is futile to whine about it just sit and wait until your number comes up. That is all you can do. Stay positive the hiring just started. I figure all that are qualified will get a call in the next 3-4 years. just my opinion.

 

[Boxboy]

Having been on both sides of the fence, is goes something like this. All the military guys that have flown transport type aircraft are doing the exact same thing that is down on the civilian side...with a few exceptions. It's the same weather, arrivals, departures etc.

Now once you venture into the fighter community, even I have difficulty understanding how a 2000 hour F-16 guy ends up directly at a major. Single pilot, single crew, bombs on target, etc etc etc.

It is just different.

Really? Don't you think the single seat guys fly the same instrument approaches as we do? How about flying an ILS, in the weather, with another jet 3 feet away from you or leading a 4 ship formation? Is that not CRM? I think the fighter/single seat guys/gals adjust just fine in the airline world. It's all in the attitude.
No, I didn't fly fighters.

 

[pilotyip]

Give it up Wave.Bubba

Hey easy on wavy,wavy has worked harder than any of those pilots who went through a military training program. Wavy's hard work has put Wavy in complete charge of Wavy's career, no timing luck ever played a role in Wavy getting on at SWA. Military trained pilots have not worked that hard and should not have head of the line privileges.

 

[waveflyer]

I think you have a point there. It's true that there are less military guys leaving the service for the airlines, for obvious reasons. The military has steadily been decreasing pilot production. They are a known quantity (in this case, limited quantity).
I agree that pilot skills are mostly based on the individual skills and not their background (mil vs. civ). As I've said, there are knuckleheads everywhere. However, I'll throw in my .02 since I had my license and instrument rating before I went in the military. Obtaining a pilot slot in the military is not easy (technical degree, good grades, high test scores, physically fit, leadership skills, etc.). In my AFROTC graduating class, 10% got pilot slots. In my pilot training class, 1/3 washed out (mostly in tweets and a couple in T-38s). The military training environment is pretty intense IMO. Flying in the military is not just about stick and rudder skills. What I'm trying to say is that military trained pilots are "trainable"; the airlines and corporations know what they are getting when they hire a ex-military pilot.

But they certainly seem to have trouble adapting to civilian life. They, by and large, are weak leaders of airline crew, and tend to be so opinionated through law of primacy, that they aren't as trainable.

I have no doubt that getting a military flight slot can be difficult. Sometimes. Not every time and not even all that often. Excellence is excellence. If a civilian chooses good schools and performs excellently, that is just as respectable as the mil pilot.

Again, why would intensity matter in the airlines. Except for my 1900 gig, which washed out a fair amount as well, mind you, including two mil guys in my class who over estimated their current abilities, always impressing on us what they USED TO BE.

And that's the crux for me, is so much of military hierarchy and meritocracy is based on how one performed in the past, vs what they have evolved into today.
Who cares if a pilot got straight As as a high school freshman?


Btw, Yip- that last post was as dumb as you've ever posted. So contradictory in baseline logic that it doesn't deserve it's own response. Figure out what you actually think and let us know.

 

[waveflyer]

Also, I have to comment on your bolded assertion above. If you really believe that your Cessna time alone made you "just as qualified" as military guys' flight experience, then you are either a liar, an idiot, or plain (or plane) deluding yourself. I'm pretty sure that you would be alone in the world, thinking that flying simple, fixed-gear, 120mph Cessnas around and around in a traffic pattern, and doing 50nm "cross-countries" is somehow equivalent to flying all complex, turbine and jet aircraft, from hour one, all over the world, following all manner of air traffic rules. At 200 military hours I was flying, and at 1000 military hours I was PIC, in a heavy Boeing 707, flying all over the country and the world. And you're really claiming that 1000 Cessna hours in 152s/172s is equivalent to that?

Like I said, I agree that when a civilian guy has the many hours of experience of flying turbines around the country in regional airlines, then we're talking parity, but until that point, the military guys' training and experience ARE better, and more desirable by anyone trying to hire quality pilots.

I'm sure you don't realize this, Wave, but you are EXACTLY as obstinate and tribalistic as the worst "kernal" in the company, with your incessant insistence that the civilian way is always the "better" way. How can you not see that? I'll bet that when you upgrade, you're going to be one of those captains who takes out your insecurities on a new, bright and shiny F/O, just because he happens to be military-trained. He'll show up for your pairing, eager and happy, and he'll leave thinking, "what a d1ck!" I was fortunate to fly with a few of those guys when I was an F/O.

Whoever it was on this board who said it was all about the attitude was right. If you have enough experience (civilian or military or combined) to get here, it's your attitude that's the only thing that matters. Guys who continue to insist that it's only the military way that's the "best," or guys like you who continue to insist that it's the civilian way that's the "best" (and especially those who like to whine about the military guys getting unfair breaks) are the ones who make our easy job harder. Who really gives a crap where you came from? If you have the experience and qualifications to be here, and you have a good attitude, that's really all that really matters.

Think about that for a while. Please.

Bubba[/]

Bubba
Please.
Save the hyperbole. As much as it makes me smile, that I easily turn you into a bigger troll than I am, you really don't get this subject from a civilian perspective anymore than I "get" the mil one.
It is not lost on me than ANY COMPETENT pilot will defend their background-

Yet here's the deal: Military pilots aren't the ones being discriminated by SWA in the hiring process. So your whole argument breaks down on that one fact.

So save it. It's not an insecurity when southwest ran a class with 26 ex mil guys in it.

Civilians aren't the ones showing up with a sense of superiority, nor a sense of entitlement. And you REALLY THINK ITS CIVILIANS MAKING THIS JOB HARD OUT ONLINE??

Dude, your head is in the sand, and frankly civilians at southwest have earned a better place at the table than they've gotten. Sorry that offends you, but the fact that it does is telling.

Btw, I will admit that cessnas are as qualified as a mil pilot. But also know that it just became illegal for a civilian pilot to fly any 121 airplane with less than 1500 hours, regardless of the quality of training. Another barrier that a civilian pilot has to march through before getting a chance to fly a turbine anything. So you had opportunities earlier in the flight time gig. I was a captain of a 1900 at 23 and a half. Doing the actual job in a variety of turboprops and jets, with 4 times the flight time of the average ex mil pilot at my first legacy.
My continual point is that the pilots actually doing the job effectively being required to have more flight time doing the job they're being hired to do, vs the pilots who are doing the least applicable flying is ridiculous. And why do you as a heavy crew pilot put up with this hookup of fighter pilots??

Fighter pilot time ought to be considered like helo time. Very respectable, often dangerous, but shouldn't count towards major airline mins at the full rate. How absurd is it that the least applicable type of flying is actually given extra credit ?

Again, for the 80% that are great- I apologize, but I firmly disagree with major airline traditional hiring practices and the good ole boy network that keeps giving them this leg up.

If you don't like it bubba, go find a restroom. Stare long and hard at the bottom of the toilet until you can see your reflection, and then realize that I do not care.

As proud as you are of your background, so are we of ours. Yet we have artificial barrier after artificial barrier put in our way between us and the truly valuable jobs. It's bullsh/t

 

[waveflyer]

Having been on both sides of the fence, is goes something like this. All the military guys that have flown transport type aircraft are doing the exact same thing that is down on the civilian side...with a few exceptions. It's the same weather, arrivals, departures etc.

Now once you venture into the fighter community, even I have difficulty understanding how a 2000 hour F-16 guy ends up directly at a major. Single pilot, single crew, bombs on target, etc etc etc.

It is just different.

This bugs me more than transport mil pilots. Yet still, all things being equal, transport mil pilots aren't operating under 121- and most will have much less time in transport jets than their civilian counterpart in a major airline class....
????

 

[waveflyer]

Guys it is not the airlines that are pulling the applicants anymore. If you look AA and Southwest are using the same company and look at the numbers getting the interviews about 80 to 90% military. So it is what the outsourced company finds important. it is futile to whine about it just sit and wait until your number comes up. That is all you can do. Stay positive the hiring just started. I figure all that are qualified will get a call in the next 3-4 years. just my opinion.

Just means that those with the power to influence the algorithms are ex mil and systemically influence the system....
Garbage in, garbage out.