Why hire military over your competition?

[LearLove]

Lets see if you guys can get this thread to 100 pages.

 

[waveflyer]

Blah blah blah blah

 

[DCAA320]

So Wave, what sport did you play? I played Big Ten basketball, got on ESPN a few times, but like you, rode the pine It was fun though.

 

[tomgoodman]

That's not true, it takes some education to hunt submarines, it's not the same as flying a crop duster.

Both aim to eliminate a pest, but the crop duster is fighting the lesser of the two weevils.

 

[DCAA320]

Both aim to eliminate a pest, but the crop duster is fighting the lesser of the two weevils.

HAHAHAHA yes

 

[pave driver]

Crop duster pilots have very large cajones and have excellent stick and rudder skills like no other. Hats of to those crazy mofos.

 

[stupidpilot]

Even better is the ramp for of charter birds at a ramp near an auto plant short of parts at 3 am. Made the Star Wars bar scene look like an Iowa Rotary club meeting (YIP's seen this)

Ok tough guy, how many star systems are you wanted in?

 

[Ih8AFYesmen]

It's about the numbers and spread sheets for the HR folks. Just like the rest of society and corporations, they want to get the best bang for the buck. Piloting skills are an individual talent and does not have a significant impact due to his/her background (civilian versus military); that's just my opinion and I think most pilots would agree. However, not everyone is able to make it through a formal military flight training program, mainly due to the needs of the service and the set budget. And let's face it, some are not cut out to be military pilots, let alone fly a Cessna 152.
Let's take a look at some facts:
1. Millions of dollars are spent training a military pilot. For example, an experienced military jet pilot is worth approximately $6 million (probably more these days). The cost of a 4 year degree is not factored into this figure. The Air Force Academy spends over $400,000 per cadet when it's all said and done. True, not everyone went to the zoo. Some ROTC scholarships are a "full ride" plus a little spending money each month.
2) Approximately 10-30% of the graduating class (academy, ROTC, OTS/OCS) go on to pilot training; some years, there are more slots and some are less but this is a good approximate figure. 25%+ of those who attend pilot training (Air Force) have washed out historically. Washout rates are less due to the change in the syllabus (ie. dual track: T-38/T-1 after primary). Again, everything depends on the needs of the service and the budget. In my class, 40% washed out mainly due to the draw down after Desert Storm. In my pilot training graduating class, 1 out 3 did not get a cockpit and were "banked". In later classes, up to 50% were banked.
3) Most of the pilot candidates have a technical degree (engineering, science, math, etc.). Many are in the top 25% of their graduating class. For many, this road started from high school or earlier. Many were jocks, class presidents/officers, stellar students who took numerous AP classes, and participated in several extra curricular activities.
4) Then there's the physical standards that we all know about, which tend to weed out many good candidates.
Once again, do these traits and accomplishments make better airline pilots in comparison to someone who came up through the civilian ranks? Not really, in my opinion, especially considering the type of flying the major airlines do. The big difference is the known versus the unknown factor, as some of the people here have mentioned. It seems to always comes down to money as corporations are looking for the best bang for the buck.
As for you dorks on here who like to bash on the military pilots, you spew with jealousy and inferiority complex. It's pretty funny how you know everything there is to know about military pilots without having experienced any sort of formal military flight training. I'm guessing that you either washed out, just couldn't make the initial cut for whatever reason, or you are just plain ignorant. Someone here mentioned about flying approaches in a single/twin prop job is so much more difficult than in a jet? Seriously? Do you think that military pilots are just day VMC pilots? A civilian pilot's training consists of PPL, instrument rating, commercial rating, CFI&CFII (so if you choose), and an ATP at 1,500 hours. In the world of military flying, these ratings are considered "Flying Basics 101", required to safely operate an aircraft from point A to point B. I'm not saying this to denigrate civilian flight training; just stating facts.
A military pilot goes through so much more than what a civilian flight training curriculum consists of, you'll wet your pants just thinking about it. I know-I had most of my ratings before I went in the service so I have some credibility. You ever think for a second about the Navy boys and girls who take off on a short deck, dodging their way while getting shot at, dropping bombs on target, fighting their way back, and then landing a $60 million jet on the same deck at night that's bopping up and down at sea? How about flying a C-130 in pitch black, flying a NVG tactical approach into some short dirt field while tracers are coming at them from every direction? Or, flying a heavy on a 16 hour mission while rendezvousing 2-3 times with a tanker in the middle of the night, then shooting multiple "hand flown" Cat III approaches with snow blowing sideways, after being up for 24 hours?
I know about commuter guys flying 8 legs a day in a turbo prop without an auto pilot, having to fly multiple approaches in inclement weather. I have not done it myself but I can only imagine. I also know that a good stick will never come forward and tell the whole world that he or she is God's gift to aviation. Only a fool will, as we have seen on this forum. It's pretty easy to hide behind the key board and cast stones at folks that you don't even know; it is indeed cowardly! Even worse are the ignorant who have no first hand experience in the matter and then all of a sudden out of the blue, they are "aviation experts". My suggestion to you would be to just simply STFU before you make a bigger fool of yourselves. Know and understand the facts before you speak out of your a$$!

 

[pilotyip]

Once again, do these traits and accomplishments make better airline pilots in comparison to someone who came up through the civilian ranks? Not really, in my opinion, especially considering the type of flying the major airlines do. The big difference is the known versus the unknown factor, as some of the people here have mentioned. It seems to always comes down to money as corporations are looking for the best bang for the buck.

As for you dorks on here who like to bash on the military pilots, you spew with jealousy and inferiority complex. It's pretty funny how you know everything there is to know about military pilots without having experienced any sort of formal military flight training. I'm guessing that you either washed out, just couldn't make the initial cut for whatever reason, or you are just plain ignorant. Someone here mentioned about flying approaches in a single/twin prop job is so much more difficult than in a jet? Seriously? Do you think that military pilots are just day VMC pilots? A civilian pilot's training consists of PPL, instrument rating, commercial rating, CFI&CFII (so if you choose), and an ATP at 1,500 hours. In the world of military flying, these ratings are considered "Flying Basics 101", required to safely operate an aircraft from point A to point B. I'm not saying this to denigrate civilian flight training; just stating facts.

I think you have pretty well summed it up. However Wavy here says his training in a Cessna at 150 hours was so much better than mine in preparing him for professional flying career. This is all I was doing at 150 hours.

Memories of SNA (Student Naval Aviator) going to the boat. Went to the boat solo in August 1967 in the T-28C. I had 142.2 hours total time and 116.8 in the T-28. The carrier work up was about three weeks of doing daily FCLP's (Field Carrier Landing Practice) until we had 75 passes. Then you stood by in the ready room waiting for your launch. My flight waited three days for the call to go we did one FCLP on the second day of waiting to maintain currency. The T-28 could deck launch without the catapult so they were on a loose schedule around the jet CQ schedule. Then it was launch solo into four plane formation flight, went 60 miles south into the Gulf of Mexico until you picked up the ship's TACAN. Then you waited for your call to go into the break and then you just follow the instructions you were taught like fly 325' feet 82 Kts, put the tip of the star on the left wing down the center of the aircraft carrier deck, when the boat disappears, make 20 degree left bank until the boat is in front of you, should see the ball on the mirror, make ball call and start playing the meatball, line up, airspeed game. You just looked out the window, kept the meatball in the center with power, worked hard to stay on centerline and worked airspeed with nose attitude. You never looked at the ship or the landing area because it is moving away from you and creates an optical illusion. The visual Glideslope will vary with the speed of ship through the water to make 25KT across the deck. You did not flare, when the cut lights came on, you just cut the power and flew into the ship and caught a wire. Our approach speed was 82 Kts, so with 25 Kts of wind across the deck the closure rate was not all that fast. Two touch and goes followed by six arrested landing and deck launches on a WWII aircraft carrier named the Randolph.

On the take off we were pointed toward the starboard bow, and told when the end of the ship disappears in front of you pull the stick back as far as you can, it will fly, do not look at the airspeed indicator, it will not be reading anything. They were right I looked at it, it was below 50 ISA. We were briefed if you crossed the center line of the ship on take off it was an automatic down (failure), because of possible interference with the bolder pattern. So not wanting to get a down, I unlocked my shoulder harness and looked over my left shoulder to make sure I was still on the starboard side of the centerline. Then it was my turn to break and I forgot to reset my shoulder harness. So on my second trapped landing, my shoulder harness is not locked, bamm, right shoulder and my head slam into the glare shield, thank goodness for helmets. My hand goes full forward on the power, somewhat in a WTF mindset, I see the launch officer shaking his fist at me and pointing toward the starboard bow, and off I go again. I was one of the high points of my life; I knew that by completing this, I would now make it through training and become a Navy pilot. What a fantastic adventure.

Qualed again the TS-2A on the Lexington, but that wasn't as big a deal since I already had orders to a P-3 squadron. But it did come in handy later as ship's company I got to fly the C-1A off of the USS Enterprise, now that was a big boat compared to the ones we landed on in training, a taxi one grade was very easy to get.

Even then at VT-1, you knew why it was as named the "Teeny Weiny". At Saufley Field we were based with VT-5's T-28Cs, the carrier qualification birds. We flew the T-34 with no radio communication, but the T-28's they got to talk to the tower. When the T-28's were taxiing, all T-34's had to stop and let them pass. They ruled the field. A idling R-1820 sounds mean, powerful, and manly, they would rumble by you in your idling IO-435 that sounded like a kitten purring. You had to look up to these birds when they passed and you saw the older oil and grease stained flight suits on these T-28 student pilots.Then you looked at your fresh off the rank spotless flight suit and truly knew you were a rookie in this flying business. But 6 months later, you would be back to Saufley in your dirty flight suit taxiing those same VT-5 T-28's with the tail hooks and you knew what the T-34 pilots were thinking.

 

[waveflyer]

Haven't we been here before? Yep in college I never worked as hard you, never socialized as well as, never played IM sports as good as you could of, nope none of the benefits you found in college ever flowed to me. Why I was such a looser at graduation I had to go into Navy Flight Training and fly in Vietnam just to get a job. Yea with your hard work you never had to dela with elements of luck and timing. Nope not wavy, in charge of his career from day one.

But I guess all the hard work I did doesn't count. I mean I only graduated first in my class from Primary Flight, made the Captain's list for academic achievement in ground school. Graduated #2 in my class from basic (FCLPS' ate my lunch at first). Graduated first in my class from advanced training, got my first choice of aircraft assignment, the P-3 (for that I was lucky if there had not been any P-3 slots that month I would have been unlucky). I wrote the highest final exam score in the History of the Navy Navigation school, was named VT-29 Student of the Quarter. I was one of two first tour PPC?s to be given my own crew and Aircraft. Graduated first in my class from Officer of Deck Underway School, I passed my reactor Orals on the first try. Qualified OOD (U) in six months, most other candidates took 18-24 months. But I guess I didn?t work very hard and that is why I was not lucky.


Wavy this guy gets it.

Yip,
If you did all that work and had a good college experience why do you not see how it's a value to the flying profession?

It's not the only way to get there, but it's a pretty good one which is why over 90% of all major airline pilots have one.
It's flat out bad advice to give to aspiring pilots to not get a degree. It will hamstring their goals. Of course there are exceptions, but why bank on that and go into this gig with that to explain and overcome?

 

[waveflyer]

Oh good lord. I am not saying that Cessna time is just as valuable as turbine time. But... It is valuable. And you are not automagically better bc you flew a turbine all your life.
I'm comparing what makes pilots competitive to a major airline.

 

[Ih8AFYesmen]

I think you have pretty well summed it up. However Wavy here says his training in a Cessna at 150 hours was so much better than mine in preparing him for professional flying career. This is all I was doing at 150 hours.

Memories of SNA (Student Naval Aviator) going to the boat. Went to the boat solo in August 1967 in the T-28C. I had 142.2 hours total time and 116.8 in the T-28. The carrier work up was about three weeks of doing daily FCLP's (Field Carrier Landing Practice) until we had 75 passes. Then you stood by in the ready room waiting for your launch. My flight waited three days for the call to go we did one FCLP on the second day of waiting to maintain currency. The T-28 could deck launch without the catapult so they were on a loose schedule around the jet CQ schedule. Then it was launch solo into four plane formation flight, went 60 miles south into the Gulf of Mexico until you picked up the ship's TACAN. Then you waited for your call to go into the break and then you just follow the instructions you were taught like fly 325' feet 82 Kts, put the tip of the star on the left wing down the center of the aircraft carrier deck, when the boat disappears, make 20 degree left bank until the boat is in front of you, should see the ball on the mirror, make ball call and start playing the meatball, line up, airspeed game. You just looked out the window, kept the meatball in the center with power, worked hard to stay on centerline and worked airspeed with nose attitude. You never looked at the ship or the landing area because it is moving away from you and creates an optical illusion. The visual Glideslope will vary with the speed of ship through the water to make 25KT across the deck. You did not flare, when the cut lights came on, you just cut the power and flew into the ship and caught a wire. Our approach speed was 82 Kts, so with 25 Kts of wind across the deck the closure rate was not all that fast. Two touch and goes followed by six arrested landing and deck launches on a WWII aircraft carrier named the Randolph.

On the take off we were pointed toward the starboard bow, and told when the end of the ship disappears in front of you pull the stick back as far as you can, it will fly, do not look at the airspeed indicator, it will not be reading anything. They were right I looked at it, it was below 50 ISA. We were briefed if you crossed the center line of the ship on take off it was an automatic down (failure), because of possible interference with the bolder pattern. So not wanting to get a down, I unlocked my shoulder harness and looked over my left shoulder to make sure I was still on the starboard side of the centerline. Then it was my turn to break and I forgot to reset my shoulder harness. So on my second trapped landing, my shoulder harness is not locked, bamm, right shoulder and my head slam into the glare shield, thank goodness for helmets. My hand goes full forward on the power, somewhat in a WTF mindset, I see the launch officer shaking his fist at me and pointing toward the starboard bow, and off I go again. I was one of the high points of my life; I knew that by completing this, I would now make it through training and become a Navy pilot. What a fantastic adventure.

Qualed again the TS-2A on the Lexington, but that wasn't as big a deal since I already had orders to a P-3 squadron. But it did come in handy later as ship's company I got to fly the C-1A off of the USS Enterprise, now that was a big boat compared to the ones we landed on in training, a taxi one grade was very easy to get.

Even then at VT-1, you knew why it was as named the "Teeny Weiny". At Saufley Field we were based with VT-5's T-28Cs, the carrier qualification birds. We flew the T-34 with no radio communication, but the T-28's they got to talk to the tower. When the T-28's were taxiing, all T-34's had to stop and let them pass. They ruled the field. A idling R-1820 sounds mean, powerful, and manly, they would rumble by you in your idling IO-435 that sounded like a kitten purring. You had to look up to these birds when they passed and you saw the older oil and grease stained flight suits on these T-28 student pilots.Then you looked at your fresh off the rank spotless flight suit and truly knew you were a rookie in this flying business. But 6 months later, you would be back to Saufley in your dirty flight suit taxiing those same VT-5 T-28's with the tail hooks and you knew what the T-34 pilots were thinking.

Pretty cool story. I always enjoy flying with old timer Navy carrier pilots. They have some neat "there I was" stories. I respect anyone who can live on a boat for 6+ months at a time. These kids in their Hornets have it easy now a days, with the HUD to guide them all the way to touch town.:laugh:

 

[waveflyer]

So Wave, what sport did you play? I played Big Ten basketball, got on ESPN a few times, but like you, rode the pine It was fun though.

Oh hey, I'm just seeing this.
I was a two sport guy, table tennis and cricket

In all seriousness - that's awesome^^^ I never did anything that big, but did enough to respect anyone who lived that life.

 

[waveflyer]

Yip, I like and respect that post as well. Most of my mentors were navy, so I love those stories too.

 

[pilotyip]

Yip,
If you did all that work and had a good college experience why do you not see how it's a value to the flying profession?

When we are talking about the college degree we are not talking about Yale, U of M, or MIT as the universal example of getting a college degree. We are also talking about a degree from Bumblebee State. The degree from Bumblebee State requires no time on campus, any classroom attendance, and only money. Yet the Bumblebee State will still check the box in the lower left corner, same as Yale.

Many agree the college degree has nothing to do with flying an airplane. But for an airline to not even take an application or interview a really good guy, great stick, with check airman experience at a 121 airline, and just a good guy to be around, but move the guy with a degree from Bumblebee State to the top of the pile, is just plain stupid.

Many college graduate tried getting into Navy Flight Training in the mid 60's to avoid being drafted into the Army, many did not make it because the intelligence levels required to have a high probability of successful program completion were in excess of those who attended college. There was a mini military pilot shortage and the Navy knew the college degree had nothing to do with flying an airplane

BTW I have never said not to get a degree, I have said it is not needed until the last step of a career in 121 flying. Do it on-line while building flight time and not rack up a $100K of dept to get a four year degree you are not going to use.

 

[livin'thesim]

If you graduated from Yale and are flying airplanes, then something went terribly wrong.

 

[pilotyip]

If you graduated from Yale and are flying airplanes, then something went terribly wrong.

I can think of a couple Yale drops out who went into flying, worked out OK for them. George Bush the first, became a Navy pilot, things worked out ok for that college drop out. The other was Robert Lovett who dropped out to become a Navy pilot also, things worked out pretty good for him also. First, Assistant Secretary of War for Air in WWII, Secretary of Defense under Truman, co-author of the Marshall Plan in 1947. Shows a college degree has nothing to do with flying an airplane.

 

[livin'thesim]

Dropouts, fine.

The college/pilot career connection is tenuous at best. And yes, I have a degree, with a mostly technical/scientific character.

I will say that some of the mathematics and physics were of some use when pondering a few principles of flight, but people don't crash airplanes because they don't understand physics, they crash airplanes because they are inattentive or, occasionally, poorly skilled.


I remember when the housing bubble was bursting, and people were many tens of thousands of dollars underwater, while I was renting for less than some were paying in property tax alone.

They still tried to tell me that a house was a great "investment", and it was a great investment **at any price**.

I said, um, nooo, it is a great investment at the **right** price.

So I waited a few years and bought at near the bottom of the market.


Some of those people are still slightly underwater, even though prices have recovered.

What was interesting was their stubborn insistence on rationalizing any reason whatsoever to prove to themselves and others that "housing is a great investment". Mostly, it was to continue to convince themselves.

Now, I feel BAD that many people got screwed over due to the housing bubble, but that is no reason to take to rationalizations and outright lies because one cannot face the truth that they overpaid for an asset.

I recently read an article about a girl who has 100K+ in college debt for a "degree" in photography. And now, she works for basically minimum wage.

Sure, the baby boomers have all the empty platitudes about how college "enriches" your mind, etc., but it's mostly a load of stupid, because college has morphed into something very different. Instead of institutes of higher learning, college campuses are money-machines for the educational elite.

"Big Education" is as corrupt as "Big Pharma" or "Big Oil".

They are in business to serve themselves, at the expense of the little guy.

 

[waveflyer]

Yeah- well baby boomers got a much different deal on education than did the next generations they supported.

Leeches.

Greatest generation set them up with some of the best and cheapest education anywhere then they proceeded to pull up the ladder