Why do Heavies ask for wind checks?

[FatesPilot]

Flying out of SFO, I constantly hear the majors asking for wind checks on final. This seems to annoy the tower at times.

I'm curious as to why they ask for the specific wind?

 

[banned username 2]

Not to be a smart a$$, but wind affects all planes.. not just the light ones....

 

[tdvalve]

Some of the SFO controllers are easily annoyed.

 

[MetroSheriff]

3 most often heard phrases in the ATL atc environment...


How longs the final today???

Can I get a sequence?

Wind check???

 

[VFR on Top]

'Cuz there's no windsock.

 

[BigFlyr]

Dumb question? Not really. While larger airplanes are less affected by wind than smaller airplanes they are also less manueverable so you have to anticipate your corrections for wind as soon as possible. Take in consideration higher approach speeds for larger aircraft that are near their max langing weights and it can get pretty exciting if the wind is doing something that wasn't expected.

 

[SDdriver]

You should try flying a BOX with a 15 or 20 kt direct crosswind. Talk about a challenge..Anyone who has flown the SD3 can second that. It's like having a barn door strapped to the side of your plane.

SD

 

[empenage]

When your rudder is as tall as a five story building youll ask for one too.

 

[profile]

Because we have a direct wind direction/speed readout in the cockpit, we know what the winds are for where we are. What we want to know is how much it might change between that point and the ground. Provides early heads up for windshear, etc. Remember, that much mass doesn't change direction in an instant, so we can't recover from wind changes like a light airplane can.

 

[wingnutt]

id like to run a follow-up question in that same vein. what speed does a typical heavy rotate/touchdown at? assuming normal conditions and weight...just curious

 

[TDTURBO]

100kts

 

[jetexas]

100 knots? Ouch, better have a good chiropractor! They touch down more like 130 and on up. Even in the jungle jet, we touch down from 115 or so and on up, depending on winds and weight.

 

[profile]

Varies, depending on aircraft and weight. On the MD-11 at max weight we rotate around 185kts and can approach over 170 kts with wind additives.

 

[flydog]

Actually touchdown should be slower than Vref. In the Westwind with a Vref of 131 knots the touchdown will come with about 90 knots on the ASI which is about 5 kts below Vso. Once you start the flare and chop the power these lead sleads run out steam real quick.

I flew with a NASA test pilot once that flew lifting bodies. The ref speed was somewhere around 300 knots. At 1500' AGL the flare started and touchdown occured at 150 knots.

Although I dont have much experience with swept wing jets I would venture a guess and say touchdown speed is somewhere closer to Vso than Vref

For some real fun check your ASI next time you are doing power on stalls in your favorite jet. I have seen it as low as 60 kts in the Westwind at the stall break

 

[80drvr]

Actually touchdown should be slower than Vref. In the Westwind with a Vref of 131 knots the touchdown will come with about 90 knots on the ASI which is about 5 kts below Vso. Once you start the flare and chop the power these lead sleads run out steam real quick.

Most large transport jets would get a tail strike if you decelerated that much below ref speed. Vref minus 5 is a typical touchdown target.

 

[ifly4food]

3 most often heard phrases in the ATL atc environment...
How longs the final today???

Can I get a sequence?

Wind check???

I thought that was unique to Delta pilots. Glad to hear there are dorks in places other than ATL.
I especially love the question about how long the final is.
It's funny when they pull that in Chicago and get "It's 20 miles... ask again and it'll be 30".

My signature quote is another one ORD Tracon once told a Delta pilot who pulled the "ATL slowdown".

Tracon: "Delta XXX, say speed"

Delta XXX: "Well, we pulled it on back to 220"

Tracon "Delta XXX, pick it back up to 250... this 'aint Atlanta, and them 'aint grits on the ground"!

 

[MAK]

Wind Check??

The most common reason I can think of for asking a "wind check" is so you can correctly set your target speed.

At least that's about the only time we ever ask for a wind check.

 

[328dude]

I agree with 80driver. You dont want to slow down much further then Ref/ You risk hitting the ground with your arse rather then with your Nike's. Every airplane is diffrent, but Vref is the magic number to touch at. Im not talking 1 or 2 knots here. More like 15 or 20.

 

[LR25]

I like the Dash-8, you touch down at or below ref. Heck, that could be 92 kts or so sometimes, what an airplane.

It was a real adjustment coming from a Lear, felt like the bottom was going to fall out.

And as far as crosswind in the Dash, when you have an airplane and half of it is tail, you better warm your feet up, you land it like a taildragger.

 

[V-1]

Tailwinds.

I'm surprised no one's mentioned this yet. Due to heavy traffic volume at the larger airports,and noise abatement procedures the runways in use may require downwind takeoffs and landings. Aside from the obvious performance penalties, many (I'd say all, but I'm not sure) transport category aircraft are only certified to take off or land with a ten-knot maximum tailwind component. This is a published limitation for these aircraft, just like Vmo, Vlo, etc. If the winds are near the limit, you can bet I'll be more likely to ask. for a "windcheck.

What I've never understood is pilots who get all freaked out when asked to land their 152 with a five knot tailwind on a 000 foot runway.

 

[ifly4food]

Here's my theory

In my experience at ATL, the pilots doing this are mostly trying to prod ATC. They'll ask how long the final is when they are mad at being vectored out 20 miles but don't have the cajones to really complain. They'll ask what's the sequence for the same reasons.
As for the wind checks, some are mad about being made to land with a tailwind, and that's the wimpy way of pointing it out. Others are just dorks who have an IRS readout of the exact winds in front of them, but want the EXACT readout of the runway 200 feet below them. Maybe they think it makes them sound important or something. I know we make fun of them, and our little planes are much more susceptible to wind though you rarely hear us asking for wind checks. We just bite the bullet and fly the airplane. What a concept.

 

[profile]

Ifly,

Judging from your list of aircraft flown, you really are talking of something that you do not understand. Let me lay it out for you:

1. Heavy jets are MORE effected by wind changes than the small airplane you fly. The aircraft's inertia will keep it moving at a constant ground speed when wind changes close to the ground. A wind a 500' that's 10 kts stronger than the surface will have the effect of a 10 kt decrease close in, and that will direction show on the ASI.

2. Miles to run. In the UK and other areas ATC routinely gives us "miles to run" for our descent planning. The question of how long the final is is for the same reason -- descent planning. No point getting right down and burn more gas (that's another difference between the big jets and the aircraft you fly).

As to the post above on the touchdown speeds, yes, getting that slow can result in a tailstrike and not enough energy to recover. Also, the IAS at stall is not the same as CAS.

 

[TurboS7]

Let's be real.In a heavy you only get one landing a month so it needs to be perfect. Plus the PNF doesn't want any blame to be placed on him if it is a cruncher. Narrow bodies are more fun.

 

[Guam360]

This is ultimately about Delta right?

SDdriver, I'll second that, 30 knots plus and full ailerons.

 

[SDdriver]

Im telling ya..wheew, it get harry sometimes. If I am starting down the shoot and getting the crap kicked out of me I will sure ask for a wind check, hell I do it all the time. Most I have ever landed in in the Shorts was about 24kts, when I finally got the thing to quit skipping across the runway, I think my legs were quivering...That thing does not like crosswinds.

Long live the BOX..

SD

 

[Boeingman]

In my experience at ATL, the pilots doing this are mostly trying to prod ATC. They'll ask how long the final is when they are mad at being vectored out 20 miles but don't have the cajones to really complain. They'll ask what's the sequence for the same reasons.
As for the wind checks, some are mad about being made to land with a tailwind, and that's the wimpy way of pointing it out. Others are just dorks who have an IRS readout of the exact winds in front of them, but want the EXACT readout of the runway 200 feet below them. Maybe they think it makes them sound important or something. I know we make fun of them, and our little planes are much more susceptible to wind though you rarely hear us asking for wind checks. We just bite the bullet and fly the airplane. What a concept.

I know from your profile you have a plethora of heavy jet experience, but the issues you are whining about actually are valid for turbojet pilots. Profile summed them up quite well but....

As far as the dork comment, then count me in as one as well. Any question on gusty winds on the surface vs what my IRS's are showing at altitude will clue me in on any shear might be encountered. Not a big deal with your instant power response turboprop, but the slow spool of a jet it's nice to have an idea of what may be encountered for the rest of the approach.

Mad to land with a tailwind? Are you for real? Never in 30 years of flying everything from fighters to airliners have I ever been or encountered someone "mad" about landing with a tailwind. You're either legal or not. End of subject.

Mad about vectors? Hardly, reread profiles comment about fuel conservation and configuring turbojets for descent. Very applicable for descent planning and configuring the aircraft.

Seems all the speculating you've been doing about others may be
an insight to your complete lack of understand on turbojet operational nuances.

What a concept.

 

[Dieterly]

Profile is right on.

 

[csmith]

I know from your profile you have a plethora of heavy jet experience, but the issues you are whining about actually are valid for turbojet pilots. Profile summed them up quite well but....

As far as the dork comment, then count me in as one as well. Any question on gusty winds on the surface vs what my IRS's are showing at altitude will clue me in on any shear might be encountered. Not a big deal with your instant power response turboprop, but the slow spool of a jet it's nice to have an idea of what may be encountered for the rest of the approach.

Mad to land with a tailwind? Are you for real? Never in 30 years of flying everything from fighters to airliners have I ever been or encountered someone "mad" about landing with a tailwind. You're either legal or not. End of subject.

Mad about vectors? Hardly, reread profiles comment about fuel conservation and configuring turbojets for descent. Very applicable for descent planning and configuring the aircraft.

Seems all the speculating you've been doing about others may be
an insight to your complete lack of understand on turbojet operational nuances.

What a concept.

It's funny. I've been watching your posts for a while now, IFF, and you never hesitate to chastise somebody for unnecessary slams, yet you never fail to pass up the chance to let them fly yourself. Does your title of "moderator" make you infallable to the rules you so callously enforce?

For what it is worth, I am one of the nerds who keeps track of the winds on the surface, albeit without asking. I merely listen attentively to tower who give it quite often. My "little" 737 doesn't have the maneuverability of the aircraft with both inboard and outboard ailerons, and acts quite sluggish in a stiff xwind. Additionally, when gusty, these jets lack the response time to get themselves out of a bind in a windshear incident. So having an idea of what's going on down on the surface is a great indicator of a possible shear. Finally, it is my practice of leaving 10,000 without ever touching the power again until 1000 AGL. Planning a perfect descent requires constant calculating and recalculating in order to descend and slow to flap speeds, gear speeds, and approach speeds in order to arrive at 1000 without speedbrakes, power, or FMS. The last thing paying passengers want is a guy up there being a power jockey, or using the speedbrakes. Yes, how long the final is weighs heavily in that planning process.

In ATL, people ask about the final so as to know how soon they need to configure the jet and or yank the speedbrakes out in order to provide the best possible flow and keep the operation running quickly and smoothly and fuel efficient. It's all part of being a professional. I hope this addresses some of the inaccuracies you seem to love posting about the Delta pilots.

C Smith

Delta geek

 

[TurboS7]

I always ask for how long the final is for the same reason. Planning . As said in a previous post in the UK they gave distance fo touchdonwfor your present point, that was a great help.

 

[Boeingman]

It's funny. I've been watching your posts for a while now, IFF, and you never hesitate to chastise somebody for unnecessary slams, yet you never fail to pass up the chance to let them fly yourself. Does your title of "moderator" make you infallable to the rules you so callously enforce?

For what it is worth, I am one of the nerds who keeps track of the winds on the surface, albeit without asking. I merely listen attentively to tower who give it quite often. My "little" 737 doesn't have the maneuverability of the aircraft with both inboard and outboard ailerons, and acts quite sluggish in a stiff xwind. Additionally, when gusty, these jets lack the response time to get themselves out of a bind in a windshear incident. So having an idea of what's going on down on the surface is a great indicator of a possible shear. Finally, it is my practice of leaving 10,000 without ever touching the power again until 1000 AGL. Planning a perfect descent requires constant calculating and recalculating in order to descend and slow to flap speeds, gear speeds, and approach speeds in order to arrive at 1000 without speedbrakes, power, or FMS. The last thing paying passengers want is a guy up there being a power jockey, or using the speedbrakes. Yes, how long the final is weighs heavily in that planning process.

In ATL, people ask about the final so as to know how soon they need to configure the jet and or yank the speedbrakes out in order to provide the best possible flow and keep the operation running quickly and smoothly and fuel efficient. It's all part of being a professional. I hope this addresses some of the inaccuracies you seem to love posting about the Delta pilots.

C Smith

Delta geek

You copied my post by mistake.