Why Can't Expressjet Reserves Get Consistent Golden Days Off?

[www.]

Maxcackel is a former member of the negotiating committee and had a falling out. Now he has an axe to grind. Ironically, he is attacking the very contract he negotiated. He doesn't work here anymore.

Did he move on to Atlas?

 

[www.]

I guess it is just a coincidence that you got hired at ASA the same time as YP. I guess it is just a coincidence that you left for Atlas the same time as YP. I guess it is just a coincidence that you commuted out of Florida like YP did. Lots of coincidences.

And he has 747 on his tag now.

 

[JumpersAway]

I guess it's all a matter of your subjective frame of reference then...

Had you been hired in the early years of negotiations, you would have seen that both the bumper stickers and the logical argument for "retro pay" were a common theme of alpa and commonly understood by the pilot group.

The "logic" was that a company should not be able to delay a new contract and benefit from paying the wages of the old contract during the negotiations. The pay they agree to should be retroactive to prevent future incentive to delay an agreement.

I think it became clear at some point that both alpa negotiating committee and company didn't really want to get the negotiation done quickly, but we get what we get.

As for 100 percent retro pay bankrupting the company had we received that, that is not the point. What the MEC did was negotiate based upon the total retro pay owed the pilot group (due to the loss of wage that the new guys and the cr2 pilots had for 5 years) and once they received $14 Million dollars, they distributed it in a method that rewarded seniority/seat ($23k for senior 70 seat guys) and only $300 for a new 13 month FO, despite the FO being owed infinitely more than the senior 70 seat captain. In order to accomplish their task, they realized that their old terminology needed to be stopped immediately, so they killed "retro pay" and started calling it a "signing bonus".

The MEC simply pulled a good old Bait Negotiate and Switch tactic.

The MEC didn't pull a bait and switch. When the T/A was reached, they immediately put it out there as a signing bonus. It was the pilots that were ranting about the "retro pay". The MEC never switched anything, in that regard. It was ratioed out, and advertised accordingly. They did what they advertised, and we (the pilots) voted on it's approval....to the tune of 86%, if I recall correctly.

I love how people are twisting (to put it mildly) the facts to tailor their justification for MEC/LEC replacement. It's increadible what people are able to talk themselves into believing.

The MEC may have been negotiating for "retro" pay, but at the table with the NMB and the company, it was arranged that the pilots would get a signing bonus. You could pin that on the MEC or the NMB, but I assure you there was pressure, politically, to get the gap closed between the parties. You can argue we could have gone on strike, but I argue we'd have been parked and still without a contract.

 

[maxcackel]

The MEC didn't pull a bait and switch. When the T/A was reached, they immediately put it out there as a signing bonus. It was the pilots that were ranting about the "retro pay". The MEC never switched anything, in that regard. It was ratioed out, and advertised accordingly. They did what they advertised, and we (the pilots) voted on it's approval....to the tune of 86%, if I recall correctly.

I love how people are twisting (to put it mildly) the facts to tailor their justification for MEC/LEC replacement. It's increadible what people are able to talk themselves into believing.

The MEC may have been negotiating for "retro" pay, but at the table with the NMB and the company, it was arranged that the pilots would get a signing bonus. You could pin that on the MEC or the NMB, but I assure you there was pressure, politically, to get the gap closed between the parties. You can argue we could have gone on strike, but I argue we'd have been parked and still without a contract.

I can understand that after 5 years the company did not want to pay full retro pay and until the NMB and unions stop the extended negotiations with out full retro pay it will continue. BUT the MEC could have said "look we only got X% of the retro but we can do the right thing and still distribute the funds as retro to take care of those that would have got it". But instead they said "hey they are calling this a signing bonus, lets roll with that and us senior guys will rake in most of it. No way are we giving that much to junior pukes when we have sacrificed way longer in this crap hole".
So when the pilot group filled out the questionnaires one of the strongest things was retro pay not signing bonus.
All this is old news but this and many other things discussed here are just to show a pattern of a union that is self serving. They have taken a great thing (union) that is suppose to take of all people EQUALLY and turned it into dictatorship.

 

[CaribPilot]

Exactly, retro pay to the last day, that's hilarious. Following that lead ATL would be a 80% Skywest hub today. You guys need to learn when to be militant and when to play ball. Majority of FI'ers just want to go Fight Club on the company and or union all day every day. You may be big and bad but you know what? Jerry is that scrawny little kid at the bar you thought you could take but turns out to be a UFC fighter. Lights out.

The best pay and QOL increase XJT crewmembers can get at this point in the industry is not thru a new contract but through growth. You guys maybe sensing dejuvu here in a few months IF Skywest Inc gets awarded/purchases PNCL's 16 900s. Continuing to be militant and chest thumping may result in a Skywest base reopening in ATL. Those of you whining about reserve rules will still be on reserve for several more years as Skywest upgrades and hires continually. Keep stepping over dollars looking for pennies...

I agree that the militant chest bumping and expecting a significant pay increase is not realistic at all. That is just the reality with the onset of GoJet bidding for everything that comes up...however...some small changes can be made that won't greatly effect the bottom line. Those ideas a listed for reserves would greatly help reserve QOL without burning the house down.

 

[dojetdriver]

Sir you really need to get a life. Your as bad as Jerry Springer OR McPrickle.

You should just stick to one username on FI.

 

[FishandFly]

Does anyone on here still have all the old emails from our mec concerning negotiation updates? If you search gmail (i don't know if others archive indefinitely like gmail) you should be able to find all of the messages still there.

Please post them for those of us who have either really forgot, or for some that have clearly "conveniently" forgot what happened.

What you will find is that the $14,000,000 was accomplished by essentially arguing:

"we are RETROACTIVELY owed X Million Dollars for the 5 year delay, what will you give us?"

However, once the $14M was won, it was changed to a signing bonus for MEC personal reasons (i.e. desire to get a bigger bonus for themselves and other senior people, despite their deserving it substantially LESS than the 1 year FO)

 

[JoeMerchant]

I guess it's all a matter of your subjective frame of reference then...

Had you been hired in the early years of negotiations, you would have seen that both the bumper stickers and the logical argument for "retro pay" were a common theme of alpa and commonly understood by the pilot group.

The "logic" was that a company should not be able to delay a new contract and benefit from paying the wages of the old contract during the negotiations. The pay they agree to should be retroactive to prevent future incentive to delay an agreement.

I think it became clear at some point that both alpa negotiating committee and company didn't really want to get the negotiation done quickly, but we get what we get.

As for 100 percent retro pay bankrupting the company had we received that, that is not the point. What the MEC did was negotiate based upon the total retro pay owed the pilot group (due to the loss of wage that the new guys and the cr2 pilots had for 5 years) and once they received $14 Million dollars, they distributed it in a method that rewarded seniority/seat ($23k for senior 70 seat guys) and only $300 for a new 13 month FO, despite the FO being owed infinitely more than the senior 70 seat captain. In order to accomplish their task, they realized that their old terminology needed to be stopped immediately, so they killed "retro pay" and started calling it a "signing bonus".

The MEC simply pulled a good old Bait Negotiate and Switch tactic.

Let's take a trip down memory lane shall we....If you remember, there was an election for new status reps just prior to the end of negotiations. Two "coalitions" formed. I put together one that was being honest about what was truly attainable. The coalition I put together stated that there were 4 areas that the other coalition was being unreasonable about regarding attainable contract goals. One of those goals was full retro pay. I said that wasn't realistic and that isn't how things work. The other 3 areas were large pay raises for the 700, instructor section remaining status quo, and a pension style retirement plan.

The other side published bumper stickers that said "No Pilot Left Behind" and "100% retro". Those are nice slogans, and nice bumper stickers....but that's all they are....

100% retro pay doesn't happen. The group you supported promised things they couldn't deliver and you fell for it....

Now, regarding the "senior" people selling out the junior people, that simply isn't possible. There are far fewer "senior" people than there are "junior" people...Everyone has a vote and everyone is represented on the MEC by people they elected. Just because you don't like the results of the votes doesn't mean you are being "sold out"....It means your vote was in the minority. The simple fact is the majority looked at the information that was presented to them and agreed that the TA was worth being ratified.

 

[FishandFly]

Let's take a trip down memory lane shall we....If you remember, there was an election for new status reps just prior to the end of negotiations. Two "coalitions" formed. I put together one that was being honest about what was truly attainable. The coalition I put together stated that there were 4 areas that the other coalition was being unreasonable about regarding attainable contract goals. One of those goals was full retro pay. I said that wasn't realistic and that isn't how things work. The other 3 areas were large pay raises for the 700, instructor section remaining status quo, and a pension style retirement plan.

The other side published bumper stickers that said "No Pilot Left Behind" and "100% retro". Those are nice slogans, and nice bumper stickers....but that's all they are....

100% retro pay doesn't happen. The group you supported promised things they couldn't deliver and you fell for it....

Now, regarding the "senior" people selling out the junior people, that simply isn't possible. There are far fewer "senior" people than there are "junior" people...Everyone has a vote and everyone is represented on the MEC by people they elected. Just because you don't like the results of the votes doesn't mean you are being "sold out"....It means your vote was in the minority. The simple fact is the majority looked at the information that was presented to them and agreed that the TA was worth being ratified.

First, I am the last person strongly behind our mec. I voted no. There was a time when I was still in infant mode in this whole thing, but that came to an end when I comprehended what the MEC did to the junior people and FO's on the retro pay.

Second, Just because the MEC got people to vote for the package and the package included a horrible and unfair Retro pay allotment does not mean that a fast one was not pulled. Similar to how our MEC pulled a fast one on the company concerning vacation low as I understand. (Not complaining about Vacation low by the way. As long as we can afford it, great. I would just prefer the negotiations to be in good faith on both sides)

Third, Try your effort again and team up with people from both xjet and skyw who think the same way. You might be surprised how much support you get.

 

[JumpersAway]

So then, let's get down to the brass tacks, here, so to speak. What in the heck does Retro or a signing bonus have to do with our future prospects ahead? Are we truly digging this deep to oust the MEC/LEC now? I'd say this was a pretty desperate stretch, if so. Especially since they've since been re-elected and we had the opportunity to vote them out since. Truth is this- they got us a deal, and we accepted a deal. The retro issue was quiet for YEARS and now people are unhappy about it?????

And to clarify things- the MEC didn't get a special piece of the pie. They got ratioed out the pay just as everyone else. To accuse otherwise, is either a misunderstanding, or a flat out lie.

 

[CFI2766]

Chain of command.

How would you have come by this information?

 

[FightingIrish]

How would you have come by this information?

Since you are the person this is in regard to, what say you? Let's hear your side.

 

[FishandFly]

So then, let's get down to the brass tacks, here, so to speak. What in the heck does Retro or a signing bonus have to do with our future prospects ahead? Are we truly digging this deep to oust the MEC/LEC now? I'd say this was a pretty desperate stretch, if so. Especially since they've since been re-elected and we had the opportunity to vote them out since. Truth is this- they got us a deal, and we accepted a deal. The retro issue was quiet for YEARS and now people are unhappy about it?????

And to clarify things- the MEC didn't get a special piece of the pie. They got ratioed out the pay just as everyone else. To accuse otherwise, is either a misunderstanding, or a flat out lie.

Because it speaks to their character and engrained goal of doing the absolute minimum for the junior pilots.

 

[FightingIrish]

Because it speaks to their character and engrained goal of doing the absolute minimum for the junior pilots.

You do realize that there isn't a single person on the current MEC who was a member of the MEC who did the signing bonus, don't you? You do realize that the ring leader of the current recall movement was a member of the MEC who came up with the signing bonus formula, don't you?

 

[777forever]

Because it speaks to their character and engrained goal of doing the absolute minimum for the junior pilots.

Ok thats enough of the not doing enough for the junior pilot whining. Its beyond rediculous. When you have to dig back to 2007 days and make an argument about retro pay that never existed, you're being desperate. PBS by itself was a HUGE win for the junior pilots

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[COOPERVANE]

It's spelled ridiculous.

 

[FishandFly]

You do realize that there isn't a single person on the current MEC who was a member of the MEC who did the signing bonus, don't you? You do realize that the ring leader of the current recall movement was a member of the MEC who came up with the signing bonus formula, don't you?

Real change (not just a couple members) begins with this and I like it. I would like a bottom to top change that results in representation for the junior pilots equal in effect to the representation of the senior pilots. If things like 6 hour min day for the alpa reps, while they tell reserve guys that 4 for 4 and don't call when you're done are are impossible, are killed in the process then great.

If our alpa is willing to change, starting with producing financial documents of our local cash flow then I am willing to compromise.

And to any "hear no evil" guys who just want to ignore the significance of the retro pay debacle, I believe the exact same thing would happen today which is why nothing has changed yet.

 

[www.]

How would you have come by this information?

The info is not specific. People are put on a CNC by the MEC and the CNC members work for the MEC as directed by the MEC. Same at almost all groups.

 

[www.]

You should just stick to one username on FI.

And you should learn to worry about your own house and not someone else's.

 

[777forever]

Real change (not just a couple members) begins with this and I like it. I would like a bottom to top change that results in representation for the junior pilots equal in effect to the representation of the senior pilots. If things like 6 hour min day for the alpa reps, while they tell reserve guys that 4 for 4 and don't call when you're done are are impossible, are killed in the process then great.

If our alpa is willing to change, starting with producing financial documents of our local cash flow then I am willing to compromise.

And to any "hear no evil" guys who just want to ignore the significance of the retro pay debacle, I believe the exact same thing would happen today which is why nothing has changed yet.

Real change? You guys just keep coming up with vague statements. What in the world a new LEC or MEC be able to change that would make things different? Junior this junior that. Just chill out, stop listening to dumb rumors about whats going on in negotiations,let the process work itself out to a TA, then we can all discuss the facts of the TA and whether junior folks were left out(doubtful)

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