Who is Freedom and Why are they in my Backyard?

[SPIM]

I would like to point out that what makes the economy in the united states and for that matter the world effective is the ability for a company, that can produce a cheaper product, to triumph over another company making the same product but more expensively. The product that airlines provide or "SERVICE" is something that there not to provide pilots a job but to provide the MEN and WOMEN of the world and expediant method of travel. If you complain that one company is undercutting another then I think a socialist state would suit your needs better. The market forces will provide for an appropriate price level whether that is the cost of a ticket or the wage per hour of flight. If you dont like your pay quit and seek employment elsewhere. If you dont like the pay in the industry quit and seek employment elsewhere. Dont have your pay cut and complain if the company is loosing millions. Dont blame Sept. 11 because that was not the main reason to the predicament the airlines are in right now. No one forced anyone to become pilots. The unions are one of the main reasons why the airlines are in the predicament that they are in now. 300 k a year for a pilot who works 12 days a month( GET REAL). That had to have an effect on the airlines. The wage should be above min wage for the state you work in and it should be set to a level where the company will attract the kind of pilot they want. Nothing more nothing less. The companies responsiblity is too its shareholders not to its employees beyond providing them a comfortable place to work. The company should not discriminate but other than that they are perfectly within their rights to offer a pilot min wage. The counterbalance is that pilots of the quality they are looking for might not come at those low wages. This will in effect adjust the wage level appropriately. But in 30 years it will be moot anyway since you dont have to pay a computer to fly and full automation is just around the corner.

 

[ASADriver]

SPACE MAN:


AIRTRAN... YES they are WHORES... And that makes you the ULITMATE WHORE.. You are even more of a whore than AIRTRAN, JET BLUE (who wants to get rid of the 8 hour max block rule) and every other airline that thinks they can do it cheaper than the other guy.... If you could you would undercut thier sub-standard contract if that ment you could fly a "CRJ-1000" on their route.

AirTran is doing to DELTA, USAIR, UNITED, etc. the same thing that you have done in the past to all regionals, and will soon do to the Delta Connection Network!

I say "our" becasue you are an unfortunate part of the industry we work in.
Even though you are not wanted, you are here, and there is nothing I or anyone else can do to stop you from whoring out your talents, or lack there of, therfore decreasing the ability of good hard working pilots to make this job worth its weight in gold.

SPACE MAN: Before you know it, you will feed AIRTRAN and JET BLUE, and you will own the entire DOMESTIC INDUSTRY; But the funny thing is that you all will have APES in the right seat becasue you will be working for FREE.
You have no legs to stand on Space man... You are the scum whore of OUR industry.. REALIZE IT

Av8tor,
YOU took a job at COEX under their OLD contract. Then you accepted a job here at ASA for 19.02 per hour and work rules that you obviously find unacceptable. Doesn't that make YOU a WHORE ????

 

[-9Capt]

What about the Airtran guys are they whores? They fly comparably sized equipment as Delta pilots for less money with only a 401k for retirement. Well, those SOB's are whores aren't they?!?!

.

FYI: Airtran has a B-fund also.

 

[spitfire1500]

Scabs? Is anyone at Mesa old enough to be a scab?

Yea actually there is an Eastern scab working there!

 

[-9Capt]

SPACE MAN:


AIRTRAN... YES they are WHORES... And that makes you the ULITMATE WHORE.. You are even more of a whore than AIRTRAN, JET BLUE (who wants to get rid of the 8 hour max block rule) and every other airline that thinks they can do it cheaper than the other guy.... If you could you would undercut thier sub-standard contract if that ment you could fly a "CRJ-1000" on their route.

AirTran is doing to DELTA, USAIR, UNITED, etc. the same thing that you have done in the past to all regionals, and will soon do to the Delta Connection Network!

I say "our" becasue you are an unfortunate part of the industry we work in.
Even though you are not wanted, you are here, and there is nothing I or anyone else can do to stop you from whoring out your talents, or lack there of, therfore decreasing the ability of good hard working pilots to make this job worth its weight in gold.

SPACE MAN: Before you know it, you will feed AIRTRAN and JET BLUE, and you will own the entire DOMESTIC INDUSTRY; But the funny thing is that you all will have APES in the right seat becasue you will be working for FREE.
You have no legs to stand on Space man... You are the scum whore of OUR industry.. REALIZE IT

Now I've seen it all. A turbo-prop and barbie-jet F/0 calling AirTran pilots whores.

I've got news for you kid, I paid more in taxes this year than you grossed.

 

[spitfire1500]

I think we'd all be better off if Mesa had let Freedum die once all of the jets were brought back under the Mesa certificate. But Mesa didn't, it put one or two B1900s on the cert to keep it alive, and to make Mesa marketable to a carrier like Delta.

Lets not forget: Delta is doing the 'end-around' on the scope. Mesa is the vehicle.
Delta is the bad guy here, not Mesa.

Mesa could have used the Air Midwest certificate, for the Delta deal. Take a look at the cover of a Mesa contract and see all the certificates included, Desert Sun, Florida Gulf, CCAir,Liberty and Air Midwest.

 

[spitfire1500]

Wait a minute! ALPA has denied some of them membership!

ALPA didnt deny any of them. Actually I think the Eastern scab that flies there was also brought back into ALPA.

 

[spitfire1500]

Spaceman Spiff:

You are the perfect example of why this business is in the TOILET.. YOU are willing to do the job cheaper than the next guy.. Then someone comes in and does the job cheaper than you, and because you are spineless you bend over for your managment and do it cheaper than the guy that undercut you!

TOILET BOWL SPIN TO THE BOTTOM THANKS TO JERK OFFS LIKE YOU.

At what point will you say HELL NO? Or are you willing to work for FREE?

As far as being a scab.... You are right by the definition of SCAB :"One that crosses the pickett line." Although you have not had the opportunity to cross yet, (I can tell your spineless being is salavating at the chance) I strongly believe you would. I believe this way because of the actions of you and your pilot groups for the past DECADE! All you have done is moved into established markests and undercut the guy that was currently performing the job. Therefore I call you and the freedom pilots embrionic scabs.. They are not quite scabs yet, but their actions of today represent their intentions of tomorrow given the opportunity!

Man looking at your AVATAR and info I cant believe someone is dumb enough to allow a hothead like you to carry a F'in slingshot let alone a gun.

 

[spitfire1500]

Spaceman Spiff:

You are the perfect example of why this business is in the TOILET.. YOU are willing to do the job cheaper than the next guy.. Then someone comes in and does the job cheaper than you, and because you are spineless you bend over for your managment and do it cheaper than the guy that undercut you!

TOILET BOWL SPIN TO THE BOTTOM THANKS TO JERK OFFS LIKE YOU.

At what point will you say HELL NO? Or are you willing to work for FREE?

As far as being a scab.... You are right by the definition of SCAB :"One that crosses the pickett line." Although you have not had the opportunity to cross yet, (I can tell your spineless being is salavating at the chance) I strongly believe you would. I believe this way because of the actions of you and your pilot groups for the past DECADE! All you have done is moved into established markests and undercut the guy that was currently performing the job. Therefore I call you and the freedom pilots embrionic scabs.. They are not quite scabs yet, but their actions of today represent their intentions of tomorrow given the opportunity!

Ahhhh an EMb145 type talk about "toilet bowl spin to the bottom Jerk Offs" what about all the mainline pilot flying youve been sucking up!!....But I guess thats Ok because its you and "its only a 50 seat jet (guess you werent flying one back in 95-96 when they were the issue...so its OK now)!
Reading your posts I am arguing with ignorance...a waste of time!

 

[aa173130]

Good Luck to all of you...

Whine, whine, whine all you want. Jesus, I come to this forum to get an idea of the industry trends and information about not just my airline, but others...I want to see when this thing will turn around...

The entire industry "IS" in the toilet... and it's not just the scum f_cks that crossed the picket lines (real or vaporous), or the low cost carriers (Southwest started this sh_t), or the cost of fuel, bad management (Delta's King) etc...

It's a culmination of all of these things... It was along time coming... business is business and only the strong and smart will survive long enough to evolve to the next level... Don't really know what this level is but that's why I've come here to this forum...

Good luck to all you bunch of F_cking Whiners...

Many of you agree(Spiff included), business is business and when there's a street fight, I want the guy who has proven he can fight dirty on my side, JO...

Don't bother responding to my text. I'm done reading this pile of mess...
The fact is: Mesa Pilots are done working for less than standard rates and rules, JO knows this... When the time comes and a new illperfect contract is signed, We'll all be pulling together to consume more of your market share...

Bunch of Whiners...

Love, your Mesa Pilot!

 

[100LL... Again!]

It is extremely gratifying to watch the inevitable occur.

While the destruction of the profession is a tragic thing, it is at least a fair amount the outcome of pilot's own greed and arrogance, rather than only the effect of incompetent management.

We have attempted to use the blunt instrument of union contracts as the sole tool to protect our profession. There were many other avenues that could have been used: PR, educating CFIs, educating student pilots, education the public, finding ways to make ourselves indespensible to the company instead of an expensive pain in the a$$, etc.

We have failed to evolve. Time was once that people looked up to our profession, and believed that we were someting special.

We have rested on our laurels too long.

A union contract and an overinflated sense of self will go only so far in winning hearts and minds. It works about as well as a gun does in that regard.

Our unstated message has been thus:

1. All union pilots are equally valuable, and anything short of outright negligence or recklessness is not really our fault, but should be attributed to improper training, fatigue, or management's failings. The worker is always the victim.

2. The left seat is to be awarded in seniority order, and the addition compensation as well, without regard for the individual's contribution to the company's success or efforts to go above and beyond the call of duty.

3. No matter how much you pay, it will never be enough.

4. When we find a contractual loophole that benefits the pilots, you will accept that as our contractual rights.

5. When the company finds and uses a contractual loophole, it is a direct attempt to undermine the intent of the contract, and will be seen as management being directly hostile to the pilot group.

6. Any mistake by a pilot is to be cheerfully forgiven by management.

7. Any mistake by management is a result of unbelievable incompetence.

8. Gains in pay or work rules made by the pilot group is a just and righteous thing, in that we are getting closer to a truly fair contract.

9. The company is not allowed to see gains by the pilots as concessions for itself. The company had it coming.

10. When profits are increasing, it is the result of the excellent job labor has done. Therefore the pilots are entitled to a bigger share of the profits.

11. When the company is losing money, it is the result of managerial incomptetence, so why should the pilots be expected to pay for that?

12. The company will respect us because we simply deserve it, because we are pilots. They can never understand the difficulties of our job. They can never understand how indispensible we are. They will never question our motivations, intentions, or actions. Because they are not pilots, who are special beyond all possible form or measure. We alone will determine our value, and any attempts to dispute our assessment will be seen as a hostile act against our profession and pilot group.


I defy anyone to explain how this is not the view of a large majority of professional pilots.


The most satisfying thing to me is to see that the reality of the situation is being forced - kicking and screaming, albeit - onto those in our profession.

The warning signs have been there for a long time. It is not likely that very many in our ranks will see and acknowledge why the profession has fallen.

The denial will overpower the desire for truth as it usually does, but maybe the next generation of pilots after us will understand what happened.

The final chapter of "Flying the Line" will be about the self-destruction of the profession, rather than peril from outside forces.

 

[Ben Franklin]

Ahhhh an EMb145 type talk about "toilet bowl spin to the bottom Jerk Offs" what about all the mainline pilot flying youve been sucking up!!....But I guess thats Ok because its you and "its only a 50 seat jet (guess you werent flying one back in 95-96 when they were the issue...so its OK now)!
Reading your posts I am arguing with ignorance...a waste of time!

So, back in 95-96, who signed away loose scope provisions in MAJOR airline pilot contracts that would allow such explosive growth among 50-90 seat jets that would "suck up" your flying?

But I'm sure that you took a stand and were adamantly opposed to the RJ back in 95-96 even though management told you that they were only going to buy 15 of them and that buying those 15 would allow them to also purchase more real planes for you to fly.

Actually, I think that I saw you on Larry King Live after Rosanne Barr one night. You were crying about how the Rj's were going to overrun your precious career and that companies had better stop buying them because, if they didn't one day you would have to type alot of words on an internet forum and spank a "newbie" back to 1995 and show how you're better because you fly a plane with 15 more seats.

You were just as greedy back then as you are now. Oh, but it's "ok" because it's you and the issue seems to always revolve around you.

You're right arguing with ignorance IS a waste of time.


Sincerely,

B. Franklin

 

[captain caveman]

Gosh av8tor, I feel so sorry for you! You are an angry little man! Please, seek help!

Angry? Yes
He has reason to be.

Little? Let's just be glad he's taking out his frustration here on flightinfo instead of what he's capable of in person.

 

[captain caveman]

....and I wasn't talking about the FIDO tools.



Hores. Most of us are/were at one time or another. 'Hopefully we will can take a stand and seek redemption of our past sins by standing firm with regards to compensation. The airlines of the managements that can not pass on the marginal cost increase to the clients will fail, capacity will be reduced and, oh yeah, that capitalism thing will work.

BTW: The rules of capitalism do not apply to the airline industry, ie: ch.11.

 

[av8tor4239]

what about all the mainline pilot flying youve been sucking up!!....!

First of all, NO ONE that is WHOLELY OWNED is sucking up flying... We operate on a FEE PER DEPARTURE BASIS... The flying you are talking about is GIVEN to DCI. IF mainline did not want us here we would be IPO'ed or SOLD.... GOD I WISH they would SELL us sooner than later... Their ship is sunk... thanks only to AIRTRASH and JETBLUE, SOUTHWORST, etc..

9-cptn: If you are still reading this board... I know you made alot more money than I did, or any regional pilot for that matter; BUT YOU MY FRIEND ARE THE CHASING YOUR OWN TAIL DOWN THE SPIRAL WE ALL CALL THE "RACE TO THE BOTTOM" oh yeah.. YOUR ARE LEADING THE PACK TOO!

YOU LOWERED THE BAR! CONGRATULATIONS.... all an "atr fo or barbie jet fo/cptn" can look foward too now is what your whoring has created!

 

[olympus593]

All TSA, Go Jet, Mesa, Freedom, Air Midwest, Chatauqua (21$ an hour on the EMB190) ETC... don't bother asking for the jumpseat...

 

[100LL... Again!]

What an a$$.

You're a drop in the bucket. Only the whackos care about this crap. If they don't get on your airplane, they'll get on the next.

Or buy a pass.

Using the jumpseat as a weapon against anyone YOU think is hurting the industry is a one-man war against the world. You will lose. However, you will have the satisfaction of flipping the bird to the legions of pilots who will overrun you.

 

[Traumahawk]

People talk big on b*tch boards like this one.

Olympus is probably talking about the Flight Attendant jumpseat that you shouldn't bother asking for.

I know she wouldn't have the balls to say no to a decent human being trying to get to work or home. Thats up to the captain anyways.

 

[Wesb737fo]

I don't know why this is so freakin hard. I see alot of posts on this board that say if you bash a freedom guy, you bash the whole group. Freedom may now be folded back into Mesa, but DO NOT FORGET, the only reason that Airline got off the ground was a specific number of Mesa pilots screwed the rest by jumping over. (I have seen the list)

Freedom was a tool to get around negotiating a fair contract with the pilots.

Only a specific group of pilots let that happen.

Once it happened, and the rest of Mesa Pilots had to take a concessionary contract, Freedom was then folded back into Mesa and that specific group had to go back and face the music.

I am sorry for the one's who did not have a choice (yes, there were some)
The rest of you did what you did for a reason. ALPA could not legally tag you with SCAB, but you know what you did. You know why you did it. You got played. Now take your lumps.

 

[aewanabe]

All TSA, Go Jet, Mesa, Freedom, Air Midwest, Chatauqua (21$ an hour on the EMB190) ETC... don't bother asking for the jumpseat...

Don't worry hotstuff, I won't. Most likely I'll be sitting in the back on a pass and you won't even know I'm here. Smooches.