Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
  • Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
  • Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
  • Share the passion for aviation
  • Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun

While the weak FAA in the USA continues to ignore reality regarding rest/fatigue.....

Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
  • Invite your friends
  • Share the passion of aviation
  • Friendliest aviation community on the web
Exactly as some had said. The length of day is not really the problem. It's the amount of rest prior to or after that day is where the fatigue and deficit starts to creep in. also the the time of day. Going from 6am. to 9pm, It's a little different than going from 6pm till 9am. etc etc etc...

As most know. If you get extended, most likely it's going to severely cut into your rest time. that 12 hour rest period is now cut by 2-3 hours...
 
The biggest fatigue issue I see is not in the 121 world, but in the 135 world. The most glaring, obvious problem is when you are up all day, have a normal day, go to bed about 10:00 and then 30 minutes later you're woken up and told you're going to go fly all night. Because you have not flown in the last 10 hours, you are 'rested'. This is COMPLETELY absurd and needs to be changed. On call should be on duty. Or at the very least, on call should NOT be considered rest. It's amazing that more 135 planes are not smoking holes in the ground due to this foolish lack of oversight.
 
Exactly!

The biggest fatigue issue I see is not in the 121 world, but in the 135 world. The most glaring, obvious problem is when you are up all day, have a normal day, go to bed about 10:00 and then 30 minutes later you're woken up and told you're going to go fly all night. Because you have not flown in the last 10 hours, you are 'rested'. This is COMPLETELY absurd and needs to be changed. On call should be on duty. Or at the very least, on call should NOT be considered rest. It's amazing that more 135 planes are not smoking holes in the ground due to this foolish lack of oversight.
It is not the scheduled flying that is so bad, but the unscheduled. Also it is not the first trip that gets you. It is the follow up trips, where you never really rest during your rest period because it is during your normal waking time. Two or three days of this and anyone is a basket case. The European's have a pretty rest policy, but you need more crews to do the same work. BTW Of course we woulld never allow sleeping in the cockpit which has shown to be the best at fighting fatique as some countries do
 
Last edited:
Same thing happens in the 121 world with reserves. My former employer would call you during your 0500 reserve to put you at rest at 1000 after the morning push, then put you back on short call reserve exactly 8 hours later.

They would also say they had given you different reserve times. You could argue it, file a grievance, waste several days of your time in hearings and arbitration (to get A day off as compensation when you won).

Indulge me an example:

05:40 reserve - 10:15 call release, put back on reserve at 1600. Then "courtesy called" during rest (you did not have to answer, but they'd keep calling and waking you up) for a 21:30 show for a 22:15 departure. The trip was a 4 leg ATL-GTR-AEX-GTR-ATL overnight with a two hour break in AEX. The flight was nearly always late and frequently you'd get underway after midnight.

The smarter pilots sicked out and dropped this rotation. The junior pilots who now were "rested" at 2000 would get tagged over and over again. But you could not plan on it because all reserve was short call and they assigned the trip when they noticed no one was on the sign in sheet.

On the third day of getting two hours of sleep in between phone calls and maybe a 45 minute nap in your seat in AEX, you were beat up, especially on that 0540 leg east squinting into the morning sun... closing your eyes one at a time, holding the overhead handle so your falling hand would wake you up if you drifted off ....

GTR only had an approach off the IGB VOR back then. Pilots flying back into the sun, exhausted, were missing GTR and landing at other local airfields. One even landed, then simply took off and went to GTR. A huge scandal erupted and the Company blamed the pilots. The scheduling continued for years, "it was legal."

When I asked the airline's President why we did this knowing it pushed fatigue beyond safe limits, his reply was that pilots are responsible for their rest and "we consider safety a given." He also made the point that "longevity is killing this airline and we need senior pilots to leave." (three years was considered senior and five got you in the "lifer" category).

Back then upgrade was immediate if you had the time. Many PFT FO's only had a few hundred hours and could not upgrade.

It still scares me to think about those days... and that was 121 flying.
 
Last edited:
TFB! That is the cost of doing business. If we had no vacation days, worked to the far's, etc,etc, we also would need less crews. Sounds great. Maybe we should get rid of 30/7 and other limitations so we can have less crews(cost units).



It is not the scheduled flying that is so bad, but the unscheduled. Also it is not the first trip that gets you. It is the follow up trips, where you never really rest during your rest period because it is during your normal waking time. Two or three days of this and anyone is a basket case. The European's have a pretty rest policy, but you need more crews to do the same work. BTW Of course we woulld never allow sleeping in the cockpit which has shown to be the best at fighting fatique as some countries do
 
Last edited:
Good idea.

They need to look at legs and delays, as well as disruptions to circadian rhythms.
Also should look at commuting/rest. I was on a redeye from LAX-EWR a few months ago on a packed flight. Next to me in the middle seat was a CA in uniform commuting to his first trip that day. He was moving most of the flight. Saw him 30 minutes later with crew about to start his day.
 
Someone mentioned it before and I'll mention it again. The amount of legs is a factor. Those 8 leg days the Mesa captain was forced to fly was a prime reason he fell asleep in Hawaii.

A lot of us move on to longer legs and less of them, but I'm certain most remember the hardest flying was that 5th or 7th leg in and out of a congested airport with WX delays.

At any rate, I'm surprised that the unions here haven't latched on to the 13 hour max duty day the way they swarmed all over age 65. Safety first right? :rolleyes:
 
Age 70 will pass before the Feds cave into modern-day duty/rest limits. Airline lobby is too strong, and the unions too weak.
 
Also should look at commuting/rest. I was on a redeye from LAX-EWR a few months ago on a packed flight. Next to me in the middle seat was a CA in uniform commuting to his first trip that day. He was moving most of the flight. Saw him 30 minutes later with crew about to start his day.
Agreed, but that might end commuting. A friend used to have to check in with FedEx after the commute before starting his rest prior to duty in. I'm guessing that was a company commute on a schedule and he was deviating from deadhead, but not sure.
 
They way I see it. Let a pilot commute, make the company give em a PS DH. They then need adequate rest before a trip.
Problem is that would destroy why many people fly international.
It has been a long standing problem as to why my company will not pay for a PS ticket for a commute. They do not want it to interfere with your duty day. They are concerned that if they are on the hook for it the FAA will see it as duty. There has got to be a way around that.
It makes sense to me, it would save the said pilot from getting up at three AM to get the first flight out. They could take a flight that gets there two to three hrs prior to Report instead of getting there six to seven hr prior to report and not being able to sleep.

On another note, if they want to keep it at eight or nine hrs of rest, they need to make it rest not to include transit time to and from the airport, dinner on shorter overnights (less than 9 hrs), and the hr or so people take to get ready in the AM before the bus. As someone pointed out before; With the current practice it only allows for about six hrs of sleep. I know when I do these I am normally good for a two to three hr nap at the next hotel.
 

Latest resources

Back
Top