While the weak FAA in the USA continues to ignore reality regarding rest/fatigue.....

[jonjuan]

Good idea.

They need to look at legs and delays, as well as disruptions to circadian rhythms.

Also should look at commuting/rest. I was on a redeye from LAX-EWR a few months ago on a packed flight. Next to me in the middle seat was a CA in uniform commuting to his first trip that day. He was moving most of the flight. Saw him 30 minutes later with crew about to start his day.

 

[labbats]

Someone mentioned it before and I'll mention it again. The amount of legs is a factor. Those 8 leg days the Mesa captain was forced to fly was a prime reason he fell asleep in Hawaii.

A lot of us move on to longer legs and less of them, but I'm certain most remember the hardest flying was that 5th or 7th leg in and out of a congested airport with WX delays.

At any rate, I'm surprised that the unions here haven't latched on to the 13 hour max duty day the way they swarmed all over age 65. Safety first right?

 

[ultrarunner]

Age 70 will pass before the Feds cave into modern-day duty/rest limits. Airline lobby is too strong, and the unions too weak.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Also should look at commuting/rest. I was on a redeye from LAX-EWR a few months ago on a packed flight. Next to me in the middle seat was a CA in uniform commuting to his first trip that day. He was moving most of the flight. Saw him 30 minutes later with crew about to start his day.

Agreed, but that might end commuting. A friend used to have to check in with FedEx after the commute before starting his rest prior to duty in. I'm guessing that was a company commute on a schedule and he was deviating from deadhead, but not sure.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

They way I see it. Let a pilot commute, make the company give em a PS DH. They then need adequate rest before a trip.
Problem is that would destroy why many people fly international.
It has been a long standing problem as to why my company will not pay for a PS ticket for a commute. They do not want it to interfere with your duty day. They are concerned that if they are on the hook for it the FAA will see it as duty. There has got to be a way around that.
It makes sense to me, it would save the said pilot from getting up at three AM to get the first flight out. They could take a flight that gets there two to three hrs prior to Report instead of getting there six to seven hr prior to report and not being able to sleep.

On another note, if they want to keep it at eight or nine hrs of rest, they need to make it rest not to include transit time to and from the airport, dinner on shorter overnights (less than 9 hrs), and the hr or so people take to get ready in the AM before the bus. As someone pointed out before; With the current practice it only allows for about six hrs of sleep. I know when I do these I am normally good for a two to three hr nap at the next hotel.

 

[CapnVegetto]

It is not the scheduled flying that is so bad, but the unscheduled. Also it is not the first trip that gets you. It is the follow up trips, where you never really rest during your rest period because it is during your normal waking time. Two or three days of this and anyone is a basket case. The European's have a pretty rest policy, but you need more crews to do the same work. BTW Of course we woulld never allow sleeping in the cockpit which has shown to be the best at fighting fatique as some countries do

Right about the scheduled.....if you know about a trip ahead of time, and can sleep and prepare for it, it sucks but it's not so bad. But you are wrong.....the first one DOES get you. Most people's bodies has a set pattern.....sleep at night up during the day, period. You spend 30 or 40 years doing that 96% of the time, then all of a sudden you are asked to stay up all night and be alert when your body is saying 'no, it's time to sleep', you have a problem. Of course, most 135 operators don't give a ********************. If you try to say you're fatigued, they say "well, it's legal so go fly". If something happens on the flight they'll whine and cry about 'Ohhhhh!! He should have TOLD us he was fatigued!!!! We wouldn't have had him fly!!!!" Yeah.....right. Bite me.

This is a serious problem that has been needing to be addressed for a long time. Of course, all the 135 operators bitch and moan "ohhhh!! we'll go out of business!!!! we'll have to hire more pilots!!!!" Tough ********************ing ********************. Then hire more and stop bitching. It's called the cost of doing business. Either deal with it or find another business.

 

[OzBushWhacker]

I completely agree. Constant pt 135 "on-call" is not right and needs to be done with. Sometimes you don't hear from the company for days until your woken up in the middle of the night.

Other countries do a max 12 hr on-call and we need that here.

 

[BLUE BAYOU]

Most of the European operators don't have to worry about fatigue since they're on strike every other week...

 

[pilotyip]

In the end it is NOT CONSISTENTLY enforced that is the problem. The Feds have been working on this for years; we made our comments almost four years ago. Nothing has been done there is no NMPR on crew rest for 135. In the end again rest has nothing to do with being rested. There is no way to ensure a pilot is rested if he is not on a daytime schedule. Having flown scheduled night air cargo for Emery back in the 70's there is no a way pilot lives at home for 4 days with his family on a day time schedule and then takes 3 days of night flight from JKF to DEN and back, with 4 stops and is anything but completely exhausted by the end of the first night. As I stated forced company rest on the premises in bunk 25B will make it legal but not solve the problem. BTW Good ideas, someone should get some money put it together and start a own on-demand company and make it a workers paradise, steal all of pilots from the exisiting on-demand operators and put them out of business.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

At USA Jet we had the crappy 24/7 on call, but the crew rest was good. We would call in at the end of a trip, after we were IN OUR HOTEL ROOMS, and then our crew rest would start. We were on a 10 hour rest -135 rules, and then the company said the DC-9 pilots could also ask for 10 hours of rest-didn't last long, though!

cliff
GRB

 

[Dornier 335]

Most of the European operators don't have to worry about fatigue since they're on strike every other week...

at least they have the right to strike without any restrictions compared to the US. It's the other extreme but it seems the QOL is much better. I worked contract in Europe before and from a QOL point of view it is so much more relaxing. 12 hour duty, min rest 12 hours! Rest starting at the hotel, not 15 mins after blocking in.

The problem I have with fatigue is that you don't know that you're fatigued until you start screwing up! Looking at more recent accidents, I see the pattern of fatigue written all over it: AA @ LIT (16 hour duty), Comair (early show), etc. but the FAA continues to be a puppet of IATA. Next time I got a d-bag fed on my jumpseat, I'll tell him, I'm getting tired of their intimidating bs. All they care about is Friday afternoon 3 pm.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

at least they have the right to strike without any restrictions compared to the US. It's the other extreme but it seems the QOL is much better. I worked contract in Europe before and from a QOL point of view it is so much more relaxing. 12 hour duty, min rest 12 hours! Rest starting at the hotel, not 15 mins after blocking in.

The problem I have with fatigue is that you don't know that you're fatigued until you start screwing up! Looking at more recent accidents, I see the pattern of fatigue written all over it: AA @ LIT (16 hour duty), Comair (early show), etc. but the FAA continues to be a puppet of IATA. Next time I got a d-bag fed on my jumpseat, I'll tell him, I'm getting tired of their intimidating bs. All they care about is Friday afternoon 3 pm.

And they will write you a nice little violation for being fatigued. You are correct they do not care, but that transcends most professions.

 

[maru657]

Next time a scheduler tells you it's legal, tell them so was cocaine at one time, furthermore, once you say fatigued, it's no longer legal. After those two syllables it's strictly illegal.

 

[AA717driver]

Require college degrees.

LMAO! Good one!

TC

 

[maru657]

My previous post may have seemed a light handed approach to a serious problem. It was not necessarily meant to be. I think fatigue is one of the most serious problems facing the industry today, but then it's actually been that way for a long time. ALPA's motto is "Schedule with Safety" but it looks like they sold out those principals in exchange for more money a long time ago. So, perhaps a strong show of support for better government regulation is needed, but it will not happen unless your elected representatives are contacted and convinced of the need.