While the weak FAA in the USA continues to ignore reality regarding rest/fatigue.....

Sedona16

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its good to know at least somewhere in the world somebody is trying to apply some common sense with regard to these regulations.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jzrE9u8NjzuQWKdua4tOh7P9TISQD95RNMRO0

UN drawing up new rules to combat pilot fatigue

By SLOBODAN LEKIC – 1 day ago
BRUSSELS, Belgium (AP) — The U.N. agency that sets standards for air transport is drawing up new safety rules to take into account a silent killer: Pilot fatigue.
Over the past 15 years, nearly a dozen fatal crashes and numerous close calls have been blamed on pilot fatigue, whose effects safety experts compare with driving drunk.

Pilot fatigue was a key cause of one of the deadliest crashes in aviation history — when a Korean Air Boeing 747 heading to Guam plowed into a hillside in 1997 and killed 228 people.

Air safety organizations and pilot unions have for years been pressing for tighter regulation and enforcement of working hours and rest periods. They say scientific research has identified pilot fatigue as a factor in a fifth of all fatal crashes.

The International Civil Aviation Agency is now preparing to abandon current rules based on flight time limitations in favor of a completely new concept known as "fatigue risk management systems," which draw on the latest scientific research into sleep and other factors affecting crew performance.

Fatigue is defined as a decreased ability to work due to mental or physical stress. Symptoms can include longer reaction times, short-term memory loss, impaired judgment and reduced visual perception.
The new guidelines are due to be reviewed in spring and released later in the year, spokeswoman Sue-Ann Rapattoni said.

Safety experts expect the new systems to focus on closely tracking flight crew duty times as well as the duration and quality of rest periods, sleep cycles, nutrition and possible illnesses.

"The aviation business has pretty much outgrown the arbitrary flight time limits of the past (and) it is time to take a more thoughtful approach that uses what we know about fatigue to make the system better for everybody," said William Voss, president of the Flight Safety Foundation from Alexandria, Virginia.

Pilots complain that mandated rest periods are now only calculated according to the time spent in the air rather than total time on duty. A pilot's daily schedule might include only a short period of actual flying, but 12 or 14 hours of total time on duty — including layovers, delays and so on. Rosters sometimes call for a crew to work three or four straight days in this way.

Furthermore, crew rest periods often include transit time to and from hotels and meal times, so that a nine-hour rest period could allow for only about six hours of sleep.

Patrick Smith, a U.S. based-airline pilot and aviation writer, says fatigue is a particular problem among regional carriers, where daily schedules can be brutal and layovers are often at the minimum legal duration. In contrast, long-haul passenger flights carry bigger crews and pilots take scheduled breaks, often in comfortable rest quarters.

Pilots have proposed using simple measures such as cockpit naps to combat fatigue. Some national regulations already allow one pilot to nap while the other works during cruise, so that both are alert when landing.

Capt. Gavin McKellar, chairman of the accident analysis committee of the London-based International Federation of Airline Pilots' Associations, cited the Korean Airlines crash as an example of cumulative fatigue. Before the flight, the pilot had flown from Seoul to Australia and back, to Hong Kong and back and then on to Guam, all with only a few hours of rest, he said.

"Chronic fatigue is a factor in causing accidents and incidents much more than it is given credit for," McKellar said. "Its debilitating effects are just as, if not more, potent than alcohol."

In a 2004 crash in Missouri that killed 13 people, a National Transportation Safety Board investigation found the crew's tiredness after spending 14.5 hours on duty had "likely contributed to their degraded performance." And in their report on an accident in Halifax, Canada in 2004, in which seven people died, Canadian investigators concluded that the pilot had typed incorrect information into his plane's computer after spending 19 hours on duty.

Air transport regulators around the world have been criticized for being too lenient with airlines and not enforcing regulations that address pilot fatigue until a crash occurs.

Many carriers in the United States, Europe and Asia, frequently make rosters for crews based on the upper limit of flying time for a pilot, said Philip von Schoppenthau, secretary-general of the Brussels-based European Cockpit Association, a continentwide pilots' union.

In Europe, for instance, current flight time regulations allow for a maximum duty period of 13 hours. Even this can be extended by an hour twice a week, according to a guide issued by the European Aviation Safety Agency.

"I certainly wouldn't want to be a passenger on the last flight of a pilot who is on the end of his third consecutive 60-hour duty week," von Schoppenthau said.
 

dispatchguy

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U would think with our regulation-by-body-count FAA that they would be all over this, but I guess not enough people have died to get it to the level of requiring attention.

As a dispatcher, my daily max is a scheduled max of 10 hours; unscheduled I can go to ??? I have worked 20 hours before - thankfully that day was a severe VFR everywhere day.

So, if you were to rewrite 121.471 - where would u put the limits? 30-N-7 stay, 1000 annual max shaved to 900; where would everyones limits be?

I do think that 16 hours a day domestic duty max is just stupid insane
 

AA717driver

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U would think with our regulation-by-body-count FAA that they would be all over this, but I guess not enough people have died to get it to the level of requiring attention.
No, not enough people have died to overcome the disgustingly political, do anything, compromise your integrity to get an airline/manufacturer job attitude that prevails above the grunt level in the FAA.

Pretty sad when the UN is the only one acting responsibly...

TC
 

pilotyip

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What is the solution that addresses fatique? Do we hire more pilots for the same flying means less money for each pilot? Do we ban all flying between 2200-0600? What is the solution? Pilots always have the option of calling fatique.
 

ACL65PILOT

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16 hrs is a long day after any sort of rest break. The ones that get me are 13 hr sked day extended to 14 to 16 hrs for delays that run in to nine hr over nights.
What they need to do is put a one or two leg eight hr duty day limit on overnights nine hrs or less.
 

PurpleInMEM

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Even if ICAO comes up with these new rules, it will be one of those many exceptions that we fly around with domestically. The FAA is only interested in 'harmonizing' when they have to and when the corporations that exert complete control over them allow it. You know...like the age 65 abortion.
 

~~~^~~~

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I'd sure be happy if someone addressed this serious problem. Some airlines are much more aware (and respectful) than others of the issue.

Lets start a thread of the worst abuses Crew Scheduling has pulled with the phrase: It is Legal!
 
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GogglesPisano

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What is the solution that addresses fatique? Do we hire more pilots for the same flying means less money for each pilot? Do we ban all flying between 2200-0600? What is the solution? Pilots always have the option of calling fatique.
Require college degrees.
 

GuppyWN

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I don't think the duty day is so much the issue, I think it's the min rest that follows.

Didn't AA have a 12 hr. behind the hotel door policy?

Gup
 

~~~^~~~

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16 hrs is a long day after any sort of rest break. The ones that get me are 13 hr sked day extended to 14 to 16 hrs for delays that run in to nine hr over nights.
What they need to do is put a one or two leg eight hr duty day limit on overnights nine hrs or less.
Good idea.

They need to look at legs and delays, as well as disruptions to circadian rhythms.
 

Crzipilot

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Exactly as some had said. The length of day is not really the problem. It's the amount of rest prior to or after that day is where the fatigue and deficit starts to creep in. also the the time of day. Going from 6am. to 9pm, It's a little different than going from 6pm till 9am. etc etc etc...

As most know. If you get extended, most likely it's going to severely cut into your rest time. that 12 hour rest period is now cut by 2-3 hours...
 

CapnVegetto

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The biggest fatigue issue I see is not in the 121 world, but in the 135 world. The most glaring, obvious problem is when you are up all day, have a normal day, go to bed about 10:00 and then 30 minutes later you're woken up and told you're going to go fly all night. Because you have not flown in the last 10 hours, you are 'rested'. This is COMPLETELY absurd and needs to be changed. On call should be on duty. Or at the very least, on call should NOT be considered rest. It's amazing that more 135 planes are not smoking holes in the ground due to this foolish lack of oversight.
 

pilotyip

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Exactly!

The biggest fatigue issue I see is not in the 121 world, but in the 135 world. The most glaring, obvious problem is when you are up all day, have a normal day, go to bed about 10:00 and then 30 minutes later you're woken up and told you're going to go fly all night. Because you have not flown in the last 10 hours, you are 'rested'. This is COMPLETELY absurd and needs to be changed. On call should be on duty. Or at the very least, on call should NOT be considered rest. It's amazing that more 135 planes are not smoking holes in the ground due to this foolish lack of oversight.
It is not the scheduled flying that is so bad, but the unscheduled. Also it is not the first trip that gets you. It is the follow up trips, where you never really rest during your rest period because it is during your normal waking time. Two or three days of this and anyone is a basket case. The European's have a pretty rest policy, but you need more crews to do the same work. BTW Of course we woulld never allow sleeping in the cockpit which has shown to be the best at fighting fatique as some countries do
 
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~~~^~~~

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Same thing happens in the 121 world with reserves. My former employer would call you during your 0500 reserve to put you at rest at 1000 after the morning push, then put you back on short call reserve exactly 8 hours later.

They would also say they had given you different reserve times. You could argue it, file a grievance, waste several days of your time in hearings and arbitration (to get A day off as compensation when you won).

Indulge me an example:

05:40 reserve - 10:15 call release, put back on reserve at 1600. Then "courtesy called" during rest (you did not have to answer, but they'd keep calling and waking you up) for a 21:30 show for a 22:15 departure. The trip was a 4 leg ATL-GTR-AEX-GTR-ATL overnight with a two hour break in AEX. The flight was nearly always late and frequently you'd get underway after midnight.

The smarter pilots sicked out and dropped this rotation. The junior pilots who now were "rested" at 2000 would get tagged over and over again. But you could not plan on it because all reserve was short call and they assigned the trip when they noticed no one was on the sign in sheet.

On the third day of getting two hours of sleep in between phone calls and maybe a 45 minute nap in your seat in AEX, you were beat up, especially on that 0540 leg east squinting into the morning sun... closing your eyes one at a time, holding the overhead handle so your falling hand would wake you up if you drifted off ....

GTR only had an approach off the IGB VOR back then. Pilots flying back into the sun, exhausted, were missing GTR and landing at other local airfields. One even landed, then simply took off and went to GTR. A huge scandal erupted and the Company blamed the pilots. The scheduling continued for years, "it was legal."

When I asked the airline's President why we did this knowing it pushed fatigue beyond safe limits, his reply was that pilots are responsible for their rest and "we consider safety a given." He also made the point that "longevity is killing this airline and we need senior pilots to leave." (three years was considered senior and five got you in the "lifer" category).

Back then upgrade was immediate if you had the time. Many PFT FO's only had a few hundred hours and could not upgrade.

It still scares me to think about those days... and that was 121 flying.
 
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Cobraair75drvr

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TFB! That is the cost of doing business. If we had no vacation days, worked to the far's, etc,etc, we also would need less crews. Sounds great. Maybe we should get rid of 30/7 and other limitations so we can have less crews(cost units).



It is not the scheduled flying that is so bad, but the unscheduled. Also it is not the first trip that gets you. It is the follow up trips, where you never really rest during your rest period because it is during your normal waking time. Two or three days of this and anyone is a basket case. The European's have a pretty rest policy, but you need more crews to do the same work. BTW Of course we woulld never allow sleeping in the cockpit which has shown to be the best at fighting fatique as some countries do
 
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jonjuan

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Good idea.

They need to look at legs and delays, as well as disruptions to circadian rhythms.
Also should look at commuting/rest. I was on a redeye from LAX-EWR a few months ago on a packed flight. Next to me in the middle seat was a CA in uniform commuting to his first trip that day. He was moving most of the flight. Saw him 30 minutes later with crew about to start his day.
 

labbats

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Someone mentioned it before and I'll mention it again. The amount of legs is a factor. Those 8 leg days the Mesa captain was forced to fly was a prime reason he fell asleep in Hawaii.

A lot of us move on to longer legs and less of them, but I'm certain most remember the hardest flying was that 5th or 7th leg in and out of a congested airport with WX delays.

At any rate, I'm surprised that the unions here haven't latched on to the 13 hour max duty day the way they swarmed all over age 65. Safety first right? :rolleyes:
 

ultrarunner

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Age 70 will pass before the Feds cave into modern-day duty/rest limits. Airline lobby is too strong, and the unions too weak.
 

~~~^~~~

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Also should look at commuting/rest. I was on a redeye from LAX-EWR a few months ago on a packed flight. Next to me in the middle seat was a CA in uniform commuting to his first trip that day. He was moving most of the flight. Saw him 30 minutes later with crew about to start his day.
Agreed, but that might end commuting. A friend used to have to check in with FedEx after the commute before starting his rest prior to duty in. I'm guessing that was a company commute on a schedule and he was deviating from deadhead, but not sure.
 

ACL65PILOT

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They way I see it. Let a pilot commute, make the company give em a PS DH. They then need adequate rest before a trip.
Problem is that would destroy why many people fly international.
It has been a long standing problem as to why my company will not pay for a PS ticket for a commute. They do not want it to interfere with your duty day. They are concerned that if they are on the hook for it the FAA will see it as duty. There has got to be a way around that.
It makes sense to me, it would save the said pilot from getting up at three AM to get the first flight out. They could take a flight that gets there two to three hrs prior to Report instead of getting there six to seven hr prior to report and not being able to sleep.

On another note, if they want to keep it at eight or nine hrs of rest, they need to make it rest not to include transit time to and from the airport, dinner on shorter overnights (less than 9 hrs), and the hr or so people take to get ready in the AM before the bus. As someone pointed out before; With the current practice it only allows for about six hrs of sleep. I know when I do these I am normally good for a two to three hr nap at the next hotel.
 
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