which fractional to go?

[MorePilotPay]

And don't forget

I believe competition is a good thing in a free market economy, unfortunately for others NetJets got the head start on everyone and without some type of major catastrophe (i.e. a labor work stoppage, corporate fraud) they will never be stopped.

Don't forget a little thing like, oh...I don't know, making a profit.

 

[VVJM265]

NetJets (I or A) for me...

The resumes went in to both NJI and NJA last week. From my perspective both companies look great. NJI is my preference because of the mission; I've spent most of my adult life flying overseas and really enjoyed that. NJA has a great contract, fleet, and the opportunity to do some international flying in some of the larger birds.


Flex does some international flying stuff but we’d have to move to Dallas. A buddy started there in December and he is enjoying it but they had to sell the house here. Likewise on the move with CS since we’re are about 30 min outside the 120 min circle. We need to stay put for about the next 2.5 years so that was the deal breaker. With NJI it’s a no brainer; with NJA, even if I have to drive or fly SWA to DAL every other week, that’s manageable and predicable.


Looks like there are just too many issues at Flops to even consider them.


So for me it came down to: not having to move; first year pay; variety & type of flying; opportunity to fly international; other bennies; equipment; and of course profitability. As always there are plusses and minuses with any job, but from the outside looking in - I think both NetJets companies beat all others hands down and I be more than happy at either.

Just my 2 cents.

So, waiting on the applications now; hoping to see you guys in training next January.

Best of luck to the original poster and to everyone else,
VVJM265

 

[LostComm]

Don't forget a little thing like, oh...I don't know, making a profit.

NetJets is under the Berkshire Hathaway umbrella, giving a great degree of latitude in short term strategy to ensure long term profitability (read: DEEP pockets).

We have the resources to fight the battles (ie. be in the red while dominance is asserted), so that the ultimate war is won (ie. ending up with majority market share and brand name recognition).

That's my take on the situation.

That and a five dollar bill will get you a coffee at starbucks

 

[ashaman]

Well stated. As a follow-up question, is the schedule at CS only 7/7? I know NJ has the 7/7 and an 18-day flying reserve also.

That's correct. CS is a 7/7 schedule only. NJA has both 7/7 (15.2 days/month) and a reserve schedule (18 days/month). However, NJA does not require training on days off. I understand (I may be wrong, no first-hand knowledge) that CS sometimes requires travel to/from training and/or training on days off.
Of course, the NJA 18-day (aka reserve) schedule pays significantly more than the 7/7 at either company.

 

[FRACTRASH]

Ashaman: That's not the way it works. sometime this year we are switching over to training on days on.

 

[Guitar rocker]

Ashaman: That's not the way it works. sometime this year we are switching over to training on days on.

When are they telling you that training will happen on your days on?

 

[Kikuchiyo]

If you can't get to work at the NetJets domiciles but you live close enough to one of the 25 CS domiciles, go there.

Okay, so my family stays here, but I rent/buy something w/in 120 miles of a CS domicile. The family lives about 3 hours drive from my pad, and I stay with them on my off-days, making sure to be back to the pad the night before the next duty day. What are the chances of getting called in on an off day with no notice & be expected to show within 2 hours? Or, stated another way, how much response time do they demand on your off-days? I can't believe it's like most military units that set a limit on how far you can go on your days off. Or is it? If not, then what's the point of the 120 mile requirement?

 

[ashaman]

Okay, so my family stays here, but I rent/buy something w/in 120 miles of a CS domicile. The family lives about 3 hours drive from my pad, and I stay with them on my off-days, making sure to be back to the pad the night before the next duty day. What are the chances of getting called in on an off day with no notice & be expected to show within 2 hours? Or, stated another way, how much response time do they demand on your off-days? I can't believe it's like most military units that set a limit on how far you can go on your days off. Or is it? If not, then what's the point of the 120 mile requirement?

I'm not sure that I understand your question. Are you saying that you don't live close to either a NJA domicile or a CS domicile? But you're thinking of going to CS and establishing a 'crashpad' near one of their domiciles?

I chose NJA over CS, so I only have as much knowledge of CS as I got during the interview. Someone from CS will have to answer your question about call-out times with them. I don't think that they would ever just call you out on an off day, though. I can tell you that NetJets doesn't care where you live, just that you show up on time. And they give you 10 hours notice. Also, they will airline you to wherever you want at the end of your tour (unless you end your tour by flying a company a/c back to your domicile). You have to pay the difference in fare, if any, between the ticket price to your domicile and the ticket price to wherever else you had them airline you.

Again, all other things being equal, the contract and compensation at NJA is clearly superior. However, if you can't easily get to work at NJA but you can at CS, and you're not willing to move, go to CS. I can't speak from experience, but they seemed like a very classy and first-rate operation when I interviewed there.

Good luck!

 

[d91papa]

I'm not sure that I understand your question. Are you saying that you don't live close to either a NJA domicile or a CS domicile? But you're thinking of going to CS and establishing a 'crashpad' near one of their domiciles?

I chose NJA over CS, so I only have as much knowledge of CS as I got during the interview. Someone from CS will have to answer your question about call-out times with them. I don't think that they would ever just call you out on an off day, though. I can tell you that NetJets doesn't care where you live, just that you show up on time. And they give you 10 hours notice. Also, they will airline you to wherever you want at the end of your tour (unless you end your tour by flying a company a/c back to your domicile). You have to pay the difference in fare, if any, between the ticket price to your domicile and the ticket price to wherever else you had them airline you.

Again, all other things being equal, the contract and compensation at NJA is clearly superior. However, if you can't easily get to work at NJA but you can at CS, and you're not willing to move, go to CS. I can't speak from experience, but they seemed like a very classy and first-rate operation when I interviewed there.

Good luck!

Will NJA airline a domiciled based pilot from home on day one of a tour if the start isn't from the domicile, and have you pay the difference in ticket price?
Seems to me one could avoid alot of drive time to be in position just to be airlined out of domicile on day on..also, it make sense if your home airport has alot more airline options than the domicile.l

 

[ashaman]

Will NJA airline a domiciled based pilot from home on day one of a tour if the start isn't from the domicile, and have you pay the difference in ticket price?
Seems to me one could avoid alot of drive time to be in position just to be airlined out of domicile on day on..also, it make sense if your home airport has alot more airline options than the domicile.l

No. You are on your own as far as getting to your domicile is concerned. Which means the ability to airline home and pay the difference will only work if you fly to work (at your own expense) rather than drive.

The fact that there are only five domiciles and very few jumpseating options sucks. There's just no way around it, unless one of the domiciles is convenient to you. It's a great place to be, though, if you can deal with the domicile issue!

 

[RNObased]

Ashaman: That's not the way it works. sometime this year we are switching over to training on days on.

Sometime this year huh.... Do you have that in black and white????? Oh, I thought not. Sometime this year could be Dec. '06. Then they will be oh, sorry it is now sometime in '07, we just need more time..... Then it is sometime in '08.....

If it isn't in written down they can play games forever....

 

[Kikuchiyo]

I'm not sure that I understand your question. Are you saying that you don't live close to either a NJA domicile or a CS domicile? But you're thinking of going to CS and establishing a 'crashpad' near one of their domiciles?

Correct. I live about 4.5 hrs drive from a CS base, but all the NJ bases are 12 hrs or more drive, or a 2-hop flight from my local airport. I've read elsewhere that when you get assigned your domicile, CS asks for an address to confirm that you really do live within the 120 miles. Thus I thought that I would need a real place, rather than just driving in and and crashing in a hotel the night prior to day 1. Yes, or I could join an existing crash pad. Either way, the commute to one of the 5 NJ bases is too much, so CS looks better (until NJ adds more domiciles or goes back to home-basing - but I'm not holding my breath for either).

Thanks for the words of wisdom.

 

[gunfyter]

I have seen posted that CS you must live within the required distance. No crash pad. At least with NJA you won't have to move

 

[ashaman]

Correct. I live about 4.5 hrs drive from a CS base, but all the NJ bases are 12 hrs or more drive, or a 2-hop flight from my local airport. I've read elsewhere that when you get assigned your domicile, CS asks for an address to confirm that you really do live within the 120 miles. Thus I thought that I would need a real place, rather than just driving in and and crashing in a hotel the night prior to day 1. Yes, or I could join an existing crash pad. Either way, the commute to one of the 5 NJ bases is too much, so CS looks better (until NJ adds more domiciles or goes back to home-basing - but I'm not holding my breath for either).

Thanks for the words of wisdom.

You're welcome.

It does seem like CS is the best option for you if you're not willing to move. And I think they're a quality operation and offer a decent lifestyle and compensation, as these things seem to go in this industry.
I think that CS's requirement for proximity of your house to your domicile airport is based on time, by the way (not distance). I think they do a mapquest from your home address to the airport address and require that the mapquest driving time be less than 2 hours. Hopefully someone from CS will chime in if I'm wrong about that. There is a retired Delta pilot in my new-hire class here at NJA that wanted to work at CS (because of the domicile thing), but they wouldn't even interview him because mapquest showed a driving time of 124 minutes. He assured them that he has made the drive several times and it never takes more than 1:50, but they were adamant. It's too bad for them because he is a super guy and we feel lucky to have him on our team here. But, it's their company...

When I was offered the job at CS I almost cancelled the other interviews that I already had lined up, I was so impressed with what I saw at CS. It really does seem like a first-rate operation. Also, they're still quite small, so, if they grow, you could be in a good position. I would like to caution you, though, to evaluate the industry carefully. There's no way to know which company will grow the most in the next few years or how any number of variables might affect our careers. But I would suggest to you that NetJets is better positioned for dominance and long-term growth and success than any of the others. That's not to say that the other fractionals are not quality operators or that they won't grow and be successful. None of us can know the future. But NetJets has the most resources and momentum. And, as I mentioned earlier, the compensation is SIGNIFICANTLY better. If it were me, I would try to get interviews at both companies, carefully compare all aspects of the different operations (compensation to incluce medical, 401k, salary, vacation, work rules, differences in fleets, stability, etc.) and then decide. But don't let CS know that you've got apps out at other places or that you're even thinking of any other job!
Personally, unless it was just out of the question for significant personal reasons, I would pack up and move to take the job at NetJets. You decide what's best for you and good luck!

 

[Nixon]

I have seen posted that CS you must live within the required distance. No crash pad. At least with NJA you won't have to move

With all due respect to Citation Shares, what do they do, come and inspect your living quarters? So, you say that you'll relocate, you get hired, you get a crash pad, you tell them that that is where you live, end of story, right? Do they pop in unannounced on your day off to make sure you're there?

Sorry, don't call it a crash pad. Call it an apartment. You live in an apartment, with a few roommates. You just happen to visit your family (who still live in your house, 124 minutes from your domicile) when you aren't flying.

 

[Stinkbug]

I have seen posted that CS you must live within the required distance. No crash pad. At least with NJA you won't have to move

Unfortunately this is true. Kikuchyo, you need to understand that CS is not an option for you if you're not willing to change your physical address to one within the 120 minute rule. A crashpad is not sufficient to meet this requirement. I'm not defending it, and I'm not even sure how it's enforced, but that's how it is. You're better off in this case just concentrating your efforts on Netjets.

 

[FRACTRASH]

RNObased: That's my point about CS, they don't play games. If it was an operation that treats you poorly, then yes get it in black and white. So far, management held to there word on everything up to this point. I believe that they realize there's nothing to gain by screwing with the pilots. We truly get treated fantastic at CS. It's by far the best move I could have made.

 

[Kikuchiyo]

Well, I'm glad I asked the question. Based on what ashaman said, the determination of proximity is done before offer of job. That would tend to eliminate those that are just going to chip in on a crashpad, cause you'd have to know the address before they called to offer the job.

I still agree with Nixon that CS probably can't really prevent you from owning or renting a second property closer to the domicile, and visiting your family on your days off. I suppose they could always fire you if they felt like you'd defrauded them on the terms of your employment. But plenty of people own second homes, who's to say that the condo I own as an investment property and stay in several nights a month isn't my home?

I'm still a year and a half out from being released from the AF, so at this point it's all research for me, but I hope this helps someone else make a decision in the short term.

As for the NJ commute, I must admit to my own stupidity. I was not thorough enough in my research, and the commute to TEB via EWR would be do-able. So back to the drawing board for now. Thanks for all the info, till nest time...