Where's the love

spinup

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Myself along with many others are strugling with a difficult furlough, that will be long lasting.

I find it interesting that after the tragedies there was so much talk of brotherhood and togetherness. Now no furloughed pilot can get a job without being asked to resign senority. This has become so "trendy" I've had coporate flight departments ask for it.

So let me get this straight, after years of goal directed sacrafices I'm supposed to chalk it all off as a loss and start over. In essence Flight Officers are being punished for what happened in September. Flight departments will be happy to exploit your skills, but only if you promise them your world, and don't think you'll get the same forever commitment out of any employer.

Not once have I been asked if I would excercise the 2 year LOA written into my contract, which I would gladly do. I would be nice to see some of that togetherness we all claimed to have.

Obviously we will all get thru this and be much wiser for the wear. I don't intend this to take a complaining tone, just to illustrate a fact. Let's practice what we preach.
 

FlyTheLine

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Spinup,

Your post illustrates why a furlough is very difficult in today's industry. The fact that any "good" company or even a small airline would require a seniority # resignation is basically taking away any real opportunity to move on during the furlough. I left a company where I would have been making good money flying an RJ as Captain with 15 days off a month to work at a major only to be furloughed while the company hires like crazy at regional subsidiaries(Lorenzo). I have been VERY lucky to find a charter job.....flying nice corporate jets.....but I literally have no life and I am not making decent money. I could build on my experience in these specific aircraft but the good companies require sen. resignation. Is that even legal? I may sound like a complainer but after sacrificing for 12 years to build a career the situation I am in is disturbing.....mainly because airplanes are full and our regional partners are hiring. Using 9/11 as an excuse sickens me.
 

UALX727

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Excellent points, I have had similiar thoughts..........Everyday I leave my delivery truck at a warehouse near the Akron airport. Overhead are many regional jets flying in to land. Same thing at Cleveland Hopkins as well. I see more regional jets now at big airports nearby than I do 737's. I'll keep doing what I'm doing....there is no way I will resign my seniority number!!! I'll get back there someday. Let's just say that it's been pretty tough for an airline guy to get a non-flying job these days. Or maybe it's just me, who knows. It sucks being furloughed.

I think ALPA really screwed up a long time ago by not requiring all regional jet flying to be done by the majors.......they should have seen this coming. This would have avoided all of the whipsawing now taking place between pilot groups. And in the long-run it would have created ultimitely more higher paying major jobs for everybody. Not that the regional guys can't do a fine job....they do!!! I used to be one of them. Now we are hearing forecasts of 42% of all mainline flying to be performed by regional jets in the next 5 years. It is clear to me that management is just using these jets to create a new "C" scale.
 

UALX727

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Yes, I used to be a Mesaba pilot. I was there from March 1995 through June 2000.
 

Dab

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Spinup

I'm not sure I understand your plight. You write:
"I find it interesting that after the tragedies there was so much talk of brotherhood and togetherness. Now no furloughed pilot can get a job without being asked to resign senority. This has become so "trendy" I've had coporate flight departments ask for it."

So let's see. You worked for a regional or corporate flight department and told them see ya, went on to a major and then got furloughed. I'm very sorry to hear that.

However, now you want someone to give you an interm job, pay for your training which will be thousands of dollars at least, pay you thousands of dollars while you are getting OJT. Then in a year, maybe more, maybe less, you quit with two weeks notice maybe to go back to said major or another job with better pay or benefits or whatever.

You go on to write "So let me get this straight, after years of goal directed sacrafices I'm supposed to chalk it all off as a loss and start over. In essence Flight Officers are being punished for what happened in September. Flight departments will be happy to exploit your skills, but only if you promise them your world, and don't think you'll get the same forever commitment out of any employer. "

First, Flight officers are not being punished, our industry is in a down cycle. This industry has been going through these cycles for dozens of years and will continue to do soon forever as long as our industry is linked to the ecnomy as closely as it is. Secondly, flight departments are not wanting to exploit your skills, their wanting to hire you, spend money training you, and invest their time in you. In return, they don't want the world, they just want what you want, a reasonable return out your investment. They want some assurance their hugh investment in you of both their time and money will not be wasted when you decide to leave to go back to the company from which you were furloughed.

So, what do you mean by "Let's practice what we preach". Do you want some company to hire you, train you, perhaps to be a captain on their CRJ, ERJ, Lear, or maybe a 737. Invest tons of their resources in you, pay you 50,60 or maybe 100K a year, all until your called back to you major?
OK, I'll ask the question everyone want the answer to. Why? When I can hire someone else with maybe slightly less experience but a much better attitude and someone who won't be treating me like a one night stand.

Yea you worked for a major, I'm sure your the best pilot ever, and I'm equally sure you feel you should have the respect and admiration of anyone you'd apply to. But just don't go looking for entiltments, we've all worked hard to get where we are including that chief pilot in that little corporate flight department that your trying to get a job with, at least until your major calls you back.

Good luck to you, I hope you find a job, really
 

GoingHot

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Dab,

Excellent comments. I still can't figured out how some of our fellow pilots think they should have some kind of job-guarantee. Who do they think they are, Government Workers?
 

spinup

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Dab,

You have completely missed the point. I am glad for you that when the music stopped you still had a seat. I'ts great that you have eternal loyality to your employer, but I think that it is presumptious for you to think that everyone that hires on feels the same. If you have reached your goal job and are happy with what you have, wonderfull. But thoes who have not yet will leave surely as a furloughed pilot. I see a B737 type on your tag, my guess is that you didn't get that to remain with the J3100 operator.

How long does it take for an employer to recoup their training costs? I honestly don't know. But I would assume that it wouldn't be more than 2 years. If it is and I'm not willing to commit, than your point is valid. The narrow thought process you display is certinaly a big part of the probelm. With a 2 year committment an employer knows how long you will be there, and can control attrition. How many times in this industry have pilots left jobs after 1yr, 6mos, 3mos. If a "one night stand" is giving 110% to an interim employer for a couple of years or more, then I'm guilty.

This IS different than other furloughs, to my knowledge this is the first time wide spread senority resignation has occured. That was my point with the coporate operator.

For some reason you have put yourself in a position of inferiority with the suposition that Mainline types want to step down for other jobs. When all we want to do is step to the side. I havent asserted that corporate or regional jobs are lesser in any way, these do appear to be your feelings though. If that is where my goals had taken me I would be fighting just as hard to maintain thoes jobs. Pilots are Pilots, and have my full respect regardless of job location.
 

spinup

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goinghot,

people don't want job guarentees, just job opportunities.
 

Dab

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Spinup,

No you've missed the point. When I go to Vegas, through $100.00 on the table an loose, it was my risk, no body owes me anything, no one had a gun to my head to make the gamble. I'm not going to go to the manager of the blackjack table now after the fact and complain that the odds are in his favor, or that I'm not able to feed my family. Of that it would seem everyone else is also loosing too. I'm not going to go to the board that controls gambling and complain that the casino ripped me off. I'm going to go out and make another $100.00 bucks and come back to the table or not depending on my risk tolerance.

I don't believe in "eternal loyalty to your employer". I do however have a realistic expectation about what an employer wants when he types you, sends you through indoc, and whatever else. You are costing them $$$$. They want a couple of years out of you for that or you’re simply not worth it. And I think that's reasonable.

BTW, whoever your employer was probably spent at least $25-35,000.00 training you as would any regional or possibly a corp operator you'd like to work for. No matter how good you are you’re not worth your salary and benefits, and the cost of all the initial training if you don't have intentions of staying on very long. It's basic cost benefit analysis.

Call Flight Safety and find out how much a type rating costs, unless it's a 737 type, it isn’t cheap.

Oh and If I had got on w/ (place name of major airline here) 2 years when I was trying, I'd be on the street today also. And I'd feel the same way I do today. It's not that I'm unsympathetic to your situation, I'm just realistic. I'm done!

Dab
 

Seeniner

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Stop touching your brother...alright kids, everyone is in timeout...oops, my bad.

:eek:

Here is what erks me: FEDEX gives the impression they won't hire a furloughed pilot. You can't really blame them since they got yanked around by all of our fellow pilots that jumped ship during the furlough of the early '90's. Sure it would make sense for these companies to hire us experienced pilots (we are so great:D ), but not from a business aspect unless there was some way to lock you in to a contract, while letting you keep your seniority number. Then how many guys would jump ship, ignoring the contract just like the early '90's? Can we be trusted? Apparently not.

Take this time to diversify your skills. Get a job in another industry...or be a Mr. Mom.

See
 

OPIE01

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Spinnup you can thank 90's Furloughees

Seeniner was right, FedEx and UPS got the shaft from the Delta and American Furloughees back in the 90s. I know more than my share of dudes who promised FedEx and UPS the wouldn't go back to thier other major and even resigned thier Line numbers. But when Delta and American called they went running back, American even gave them thier old line #s back even though they had resigned them. That is why FedEx will doesn't want to hire ex-somebodies.

And you can thank your unions for trying to keep thier thumbs on the commuters like Comair and stunting thier growth and not allowing Flow through agreements. A buddy thier said that a couple Furloughed Delta pilots came in wanting to apply and the Comair guys all but laughed them out of the office.

I wonder if Delta or United would have had to furlough if all the pilots would have agreed to a short term pay cut like SWA, AirTran, or JetBlue pilots said they would. I bet it will cost the majors more money to furlough, Retrain pilots, Recall and Retrain again than if the all pilots would have agreed to take a pay cut by flying less hours a month so everyone could have a piece of the pie and stay current.

Please don't be mad at the companies that are not hiring you. Look inward towards your own company. And someday when this happens again (which it will) don't sit there and say, "Well I had to suck it up back in 2002, so you young guys suck it up now". Be a part of the solution not the problem if you get a chance.

I will continue to pray for you and all those who have been affected by this tragidy. And may you seek Gods grace in your walk in life.
 

SpacemanSpiff

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attitude of entitlement

The attitude of entitlement by a lot (notice I did NOT say all) ALPA pilots is sickening. Not only that, but most hard-core union folks are just completely ignorant when it comes to basic economic principles. It is sad.
 

flydog

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Not all flight departments require resignation of seniority. At my company we have many American, United, Delta, etc furloughed pilots who the company knows are here for the short term 1-2 years and has paid for their training.

Its just the good career type companies like EJA and Southwest that want to hire career minded people not temp labor
 

rudedog

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[United Pilots had a choice to reduce their monthly garantee to avoid puting their brothers on the street. The vote from the top half was scew em.]

av8,

Where did you get this? The only vote so far was passed by United pilots to pay COBRA medical/dental benefits for furloughed UAL pilots out of their own pockets. UAL furloughed fast and furious starting in October and only accepted about half the requests for early retirement. By management's own admission, the 60 hour no-fly lines, early retirements, and other "furlough/surplus reduction" programs were ONLY meant by the Company to save money while they bumped pilots to lower paying equipment and furloughed pilots. They intended to end up with only about 8,000 pilots (out of about 10,000 as of 9/11) no matter what the Union did. So far, the Company is the only side to take action against junior pilots. However, it remains to be seen how the Union settles the contract violations (non-probationary furloughs, feeder flying, pay protection) with the Company when negotiations eventually take place.
 

UALX727

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Av8,

I believe your buddies are mistaken regarding the UAL pilots not accepting a reduction in guarantee too avoid future furloughs. I have been monitoring every source of information available on this situation (Alpa website, Capt. Forte's hotline, buddies still working for UAL, etc.). I have never heard this mentioned by any source of info. that I have access to. Do you have anything concrete on this??? If you do I'd sure like to see it.

I for one am extremely happy that the UAL pilots are going to cover our medical insurance costs. This helps out a lot to all of the furloughed guys out there.
 
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