Where was ALPA?

[Rez O. Lewshun]

No..I would not agree. There are millions of non-union workers who are treated fairly and actually feel ownership in the companies they work for...and those companies are successful. Look at most companies who have a large organized labor force and tell me how they are doing these days..

I will give you two examples..

Auto manufactures (domestic)

Airlines...

I guess the unions are totally without blame?

What airline do you work for?

Well isn't that unique... even SWA with great managment has unions.....

Most of the work force isn't safety sensitive. Got cubical issues?

 

[JungleJett]

Well isn't that unique... even SWA with great managment has unions.....

Most of the work force isn't safety sensitive. Got cubical issues?

..because they are NOT ALPA..

Again..what airline do you work for?

 

[PCL_128]

Shopping a non-union shop?????

Some Costcos are unionized. The company has no anti-union sentiments, and treats its employees wonderfully. Company policy is that not a single employee can make less than $10/hr, and everyone has access to affordable healthcare. Great company.

 

[PCL_128]

How will the vote go..

1100-1200 pilots will vote
Top 300 will vote No...alot of ground to make up
60% of the previous ALPA folks will vote No
??

I estimate 80% of the pilots will vote, with 65%-70% of them voting in favor of ALPA.

 

[PCL_128]

Glad to see ALPA is pressuring the NTSB on issues which the public doesn't care about...

ALPA is protecting the reputation of the two fallen pilots who can no longer protect themselves. Thank God someone is there to do it, because the company certainly won't.

 

[CopilotDoug]

ALPA is protecting the reputation of the two fallen pilots who can no longer protect themselves. Thank God someone is there to do it, because the company certainly won't.

...until it's determined to be 'Pilot Error'

But that's inside baseball...well over the heads of the general public.

 

[JungleJett]

ALPA is protecting the reputation of the two fallen pilots who can no longer protect themselves. Thank God someone is there to do it, because the company certainly won't.

This has been discussed..and they are too little, too late.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

..because they are NOT ALPA..

Again..what airline do you work for?

You're missing the point.. its the managment...

 

[CopilotDoug]

You're missing the point.. its the managment...

What kind of excuse do you use to support (work for) your failed and pathetic management?

 

[JoeMerchant]

Everyone keeps bringing up the SWA union management relationship....But it isn't just SWA management that cooperates.....

Remember the SWA pilots gave management a cost advantage for many years that was used against the "Legacy" carriers...They had no pension plan which gave them a huge cost advantage. They also had more flexible work rules....another cost advantage....

It takes 2 to tango.....

 

[CopilotDoug]

Everyone keeps bringing up the SWA union management relationship....But it isn't just SWA management that cooperates.....

Remember the SWA pilots gave management a cost advantage for many years that was used against the "Legacy" carriers...They had no pension plan which gave them a huge cost advantage. They also had more flexible work rules....another cost advantage....

It takes 2 to tango.....

Alot like startups. Day 1 of operations is when operational costs are at there lowest.

 

[JungleJett]

You're missing the point.. its the managment...

And you cannot answer a simple question.....why is that?


It is always management...never the work groups..ever.

Your attitude shows us what is wrong with unions...

 

[pilotyip]

Another SWA advantage

And you cannot answer a simple question.....why is that?


It is always management...never the work groups..ever.

Your attitude shows us what is wrong with unions...

Remember back in the late 90's SWA was a stepping stone where you built time in order to get a dream job at DAL, AAL, NWA, etc. This gave them a steady turnover of experienced pilots who were moving up the pay scale. This kept average pilot hourly pay at the lower end of their pay scale. I saw in one of the industry pubs a couple years ago that the percent of gross revenue needed to cover emp[loyee compensation had grown from 36% in 2000 to 42% in 2006. That is 6% not going to the bottom line.

 

[CopilotDoug]

Remember back in the late 90's SWA was a stepping stone where you built time in order to get a dream job at DAL, AAL, NWA, etc. This gave them a steady turnover of experienced pilots who were moving up the pay scale. This kept average pilot hourly pay at the lower end of their pay scale. I saw in one of the industry pubs a couple years ago that the percent of gross revenue needed to cover emp[loyee compensation had grown from 36% in 2000 to 42% in 2006. That is 6% not going to the bottom line.

But the company is still solvent, right? IMO, we need to change expectations of publicly held companies from "continual growth" to "continual solvency"

 

[Lear70]

That's actually a good point.

For decades, an airline growing was the only way for it to remain profitable, by making sure the majority of employees were on the bottom end of the wage scale.

Now that the pilots aren't flowing through, and growth is no longer an option, airlines are going to HAVE to raise prices to cover the costs, and that INCLUDES Southwest, as their hedges slowly increase in price, they're not going to have a choice.

That's why the airlines need to be re-regulated. The CEO's keep playing the game of "let's undercut each other" to the point they can't make money and there is no more blood to squeeze out of the employees to make up for it. They're not self-policing, they're gaming the system.

Hell, I'd be happy for a law passed that requires any company working under the RLA to have to price their product at least break-even for the cost to produce it, on a leg-by-leg basis, not this b.s. of "we lose money here to make it up over there".

Yes, it would result in loss of service to smaller cities and the government would have to subsidize more, but it's either that, full regulation, completely stop the ability of airlines to file reorganization bankruptcy, or we continue the profit/bankruptcy cycle we've seen ever since deregulation.

Deregulation of the airline industry has been a failure because airlines aren't required to run profitably or fail. Taxpayers are benefiting from lower ticket prices, yes, but they pay for it in higher taxes as the government spends Billions when they keep getting bailed out. Fix their ability to price at a loss and file reorganization bankruptcy, or reregulate the industry. Anything else is just a band-aid.

 

[twepilot]

ahh..remember the days of free market capitalism...boy that was great!

RV

 

[Jar Jar]

A free market is a market that is free of government intervention and regulation, besides the minimal function of maintaining the legal system and protecting property rights, and is also free of private force and fraud.

Q:No government intervention?
A: RLA
Q: Free of private force and fraud?
A: OPEC

My point: The airline industry has never been a true 'free market' by any means.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

And you cannot answer a simple question.....why is that?


It is always management...never the work groups..ever.

Your attitude shows us what is wrong with unions...

You defending poor pathetic management is like blaming the FO for a poor pathetic Capt.

Who has operational control? Management or the union?


Want to try again?

 

[JungleJett]

You defending poor pathetic management is like blaming the FO for a poor pathetic Capt.

Who has operational control? Management or the union?


Want to try again?

It takes two to tango...just like your example...it takes a good crew working together to get an airplane from point A to point B safely. The guys who spend the most time pointing the finger and are usually the most guilty of something themselves and then try to get other to agree with them.

Take some personal and professional responsibility.

Answer the question proud union member.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

It takes two to tango...just like your example...it takes a good crew working together to get an airplane from point A to point B safely. The guys who spend the most time pointing the finger and are usually the most guilty of something themselves and then try to get other to agree with them.

It seems you have an understanding, just a correlation problem...

The pilot...but any action he or she takes, you must be able to show you used sound judgment. If not, then you must be accountable for your actions.

As a pilot, you should use every resource available to you, many of those are outside the cockpit.​

I was not in the seat of that airplane...but the investigation is revealing.​

Take some personal and professional responsibility.

So if I took personal and professional responsibility, does that mean you won't have to? Or asked another way, what responsibilities have you taken?

Why am I burdened with both yours and mine repsonsbility? Are you not self reliant?

Further more, you believe pilots should be accountable but not management. Did you not say it takes two to tango?

Again, if you can try and be clever and witty and burden me with your responsibility then you can blame me for your misery....

Answer the question proud union member.

You seem to be under the self given impression that I am obligated to you......

I think we have maxed out your capabilities in this discussion.....

Anything else you want to talk about?