Where was ALPA?

[CopilotDoug]

Everyone keeps bringing up the SWA union management relationship....But it isn't just SWA management that cooperates.....

Remember the SWA pilots gave management a cost advantage for many years that was used against the "Legacy" carriers...They had no pension plan which gave them a huge cost advantage. They also had more flexible work rules....another cost advantage....

It takes 2 to tango.....

Alot like startups. Day 1 of operations is when operational costs are at there lowest.

 

[JungleJett]

You're missing the point.. its the managment...

And you cannot answer a simple question.....why is that?


It is always management...never the work groups..ever.

Your attitude shows us what is wrong with unions...

 

[pilotyip]

Another SWA advantage

And you cannot answer a simple question.....why is that?


It is always management...never the work groups..ever.

Your attitude shows us what is wrong with unions...

Remember back in the late 90's SWA was a stepping stone where you built time in order to get a dream job at DAL, AAL, NWA, etc. This gave them a steady turnover of experienced pilots who were moving up the pay scale. This kept average pilot hourly pay at the lower end of their pay scale. I saw in one of the industry pubs a couple years ago that the percent of gross revenue needed to cover emp[loyee compensation had grown from 36% in 2000 to 42% in 2006. That is 6% not going to the bottom line.

 

[CopilotDoug]

Remember back in the late 90's SWA was a stepping stone where you built time in order to get a dream job at DAL, AAL, NWA, etc. This gave them a steady turnover of experienced pilots who were moving up the pay scale. This kept average pilot hourly pay at the lower end of their pay scale. I saw in one of the industry pubs a couple years ago that the percent of gross revenue needed to cover emp[loyee compensation had grown from 36% in 2000 to 42% in 2006. That is 6% not going to the bottom line.

But the company is still solvent, right? IMO, we need to change expectations of publicly held companies from "continual growth" to "continual solvency"

 

[Lear70]

That's actually a good point.

For decades, an airline growing was the only way for it to remain profitable, by making sure the majority of employees were on the bottom end of the wage scale.

Now that the pilots aren't flowing through, and growth is no longer an option, airlines are going to HAVE to raise prices to cover the costs, and that INCLUDES Southwest, as their hedges slowly increase in price, they're not going to have a choice.

That's why the airlines need to be re-regulated. The CEO's keep playing the game of "let's undercut each other" to the point they can't make money and there is no more blood to squeeze out of the employees to make up for it. They're not self-policing, they're gaming the system.

Hell, I'd be happy for a law passed that requires any company working under the RLA to have to price their product at least break-even for the cost to produce it, on a leg-by-leg basis, not this b.s. of "we lose money here to make it up over there".

Yes, it would result in loss of service to smaller cities and the government would have to subsidize more, but it's either that, full regulation, completely stop the ability of airlines to file reorganization bankruptcy, or we continue the profit/bankruptcy cycle we've seen ever since deregulation.

Deregulation of the airline industry has been a failure because airlines aren't required to run profitably or fail. Taxpayers are benefiting from lower ticket prices, yes, but they pay for it in higher taxes as the government spends Billions when they keep getting bailed out. Fix their ability to price at a loss and file reorganization bankruptcy, or reregulate the industry. Anything else is just a band-aid.

 

[twepilot]

ahh..remember the days of free market capitalism...boy that was great!

RV

 

[Jar Jar]

A free market is a market that is free of government intervention and regulation, besides the minimal function of maintaining the legal system and protecting property rights, and is also free of private force and fraud.

Q:No government intervention?
A: RLA
Q: Free of private force and fraud?
A: OPEC

My point: The airline industry has never been a true 'free market' by any means.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

And you cannot answer a simple question.....why is that?


It is always management...never the work groups..ever.

Your attitude shows us what is wrong with unions...

You defending poor pathetic management is like blaming the FO for a poor pathetic Capt.

Who has operational control? Management or the union?


Want to try again?

 

[JungleJett]

You defending poor pathetic management is like blaming the FO for a poor pathetic Capt.

Who has operational control? Management or the union?


Want to try again?

It takes two to tango...just like your example...it takes a good crew working together to get an airplane from point A to point B safely. The guys who spend the most time pointing the finger and are usually the most guilty of something themselves and then try to get other to agree with them.

Take some personal and professional responsibility.

Answer the question proud union member.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

It takes two to tango...just like your example...it takes a good crew working together to get an airplane from point A to point B safely. The guys who spend the most time pointing the finger and are usually the most guilty of something themselves and then try to get other to agree with them.

It seems you have an understanding, just a correlation problem...

The pilot...but any action he or she takes, you must be able to show you used sound judgment. If not, then you must be accountable for your actions.

As a pilot, you should use every resource available to you, many of those are outside the cockpit.​

I was not in the seat of that airplane...but the investigation is revealing.​

Take some personal and professional responsibility.

So if I took personal and professional responsibility, does that mean you won't have to? Or asked another way, what responsibilities have you taken?

Why am I burdened with both yours and mine repsonsbility? Are you not self reliant?

Further more, you believe pilots should be accountable but not management. Did you not say it takes two to tango?

Again, if you can try and be clever and witty and burden me with your responsibility then you can blame me for your misery....

Answer the question proud union member.

You seem to be under the self given impression that I am obligated to you......

I think we have maxed out your capabilities in this discussion.....

Anything else you want to talk about?

 

[JungleJett]

Show me where I said management was not accountable. You will NOT find it...anywhere. Be cautious about making assumptions. It seems clear that you feel that unions are without any sort of accountability. And that is the root of the problem and until you fully understand it, you and the profession will continue to suffer and when you peel back the layers of responsibility, when you get through the layers of management abuses..you will find people like you. Ignorant and stoic...and without work. Enjoy the fog.

Your silence speaks volumes.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Show me where I said management was not accountable. You will NOT find it...anywhere. Be cautious about making assumptions. It seems clear that you feel that unions are without any sort of accountability. And that is the root of the problem and until you fully understand it, you and the profession will continue to suffer and when you peel back the layers of responsibility, when you get through the layers of management abuses..you will find people like you. Ignorant and stoic...and without work. Enjoy the fog.

Why don't you talk about what you can control. Your own actions.....

Your silence speaks volumes.

Am I obligated to you?

 

[CopilotDoug]

Am I obligated to you?

No, you're not obligated to him. But for someone who likes to pontificate from his high horse, you're hurting you're own case as if there's something to hide.

You say Jungle Jett makes excuses for his poor pathetic management. I'm guessing the management you go to work for isn't all that great either. Is that better than making excuses for management? To show up to work so your Boss can cut your pay and build a third home?

 

[Raoul Duke]

it is no more acceptable for a boss to cut wages to build a 3rd home than it is for labor to demand unrealistic wages and bankrupt a company (i.e. UA circa 2000)

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

it is no more acceptable for a boss to cut wages to build a 3rd home than it is for labor to demand unrealistic wages and bankrupt a company (i.e. UA circa 2000)

Not sure UAL2000 wages bankrupt UAL.... there was a significant drop in air travel summer 2001. In addtion, the UAL BOD brought in Tilton, a BK man, to take the company into and out of BK.

The pilots accepted concessionary wages....

 

[JungleJett]

Show me where I said management was not accountable.

Again, you cannot answer a simple question. Show me where I have said that management was NOT accountable. You attributed those words to me..now prove to me where I said it. You cannot..

Do as I say....not as I do. Typical considering what you represent.

Costco has spines on sale...pick one up.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Again, you cannot answer a simple question. Show me where I have said that management was NOT accountable. You attributed those words to me..now prove to me where I said it. You cannot..

Do as I say....not as I do. Typical considering what you represent.

Costco has spines on sale...pick one up.

Are you ok?

 

[ualdriver]

it is no more acceptable for a boss to cut wages to build a 3rd home than it is for labor to demand unrealistic wages and bankrupt a company (i.e. UA circa 2000)

You're going to have to explain that one to me, Raoul. Could you please post ANY verifiable information, including the math you used to arrive at that statement, to back up your point? Please show where the difference in UAL pilot total compensation pre Contract 2000 and post Contract 2000 was the monetary amount that was the difference between solvency and insolvency for UAL inc.

 

[XTW]

Hey Rez,

How come you will not answer the simple question regarding your employer?

X

 

[JoeMerchant]

You're going to have to explain that one to me, Raoul. Could you please post ANY verifiable information, including the math you used to arrive at that statement, to back up your point? Please show where the difference in UAL pilot total compensation pre Contract 2000 and post Contract 2000 was the monetary amount that was the difference between solvency and insolvency for UAL inc.

What was it that your former MEC Chairman Dubinsky said...."We don't want to kill the golden goose, we just want to choke it until it gives it's last egg"....The pensions choked the legacy carriers....

 

[Lear70]

What was it that your former MEC Chairman Dubinsky said...."We don't want to kill the golden goose, we just want to choke it until it gives it's last egg"....The pensions choked the legacy carriers....

Not.

Pensions were funded just FINE through investments until the big, late 90's stock boom, and the senior management teams at many of the legacies thought it would be great to raid those funds, just take them down to the government-required levels, and use the cash they pulled out as bonuses. After all, it was THEIR management that had resulted in the big increases in stocks and bonds at companies the world over, right?

Of course, it was the dot com bubble, it burst, and the pensions ended up being 50% or so underfunded in many cases. Interestingly enough, most of those had come back to only being 20-30% underfunded before the bankruptcy filings were complete.

Re-funding the pensions to required levels would not have bankrupted the companies, either. Nor would an average pilot salary of $150k for an F/O, $225k for a Captain, which is what the average salary for a DAL/UAL pilot was when that contract was signed (not many were going to make that $300,000 figure, something like 10% of the seniority list in any given year projected for the next 12 years after DOS).

The average ticket price would have had to increase between $15 and $20 to cover BOTH the increased pilot salaries AND the pensions. This equates to a roughly 5-7% increase in the cost of a ticket.

Now, if you add in increased pilot costs and pensions, same for flight attendants, gate agents, ground handlers, mechanics, plus doubling of gas prices for the planes, crap contracts for new planes and ground equipment paying high prices and high interest, increased gate leases expense, caterers raising prices, it all resulted in a NET increase of cost above 50%, while airlines priced their products lower and lower in this insane "war of attrition" in which NO ONE was going to be the winner, due to the government-allowed "repeated bankruptcy" cycle.

THAT'S what caused the bankruptcy filings. Corporate greed and an inability to raise prices when your competitors don't either, because you'll lose your customers to them, even though that other airline is pricing at a loss, just to drive you out of the market.

The price of automobile gas roughly doubled during that same time. The price of utilities for your home went up by 30%. The price of groceries increased about 15%. The price of cars went up by about 20%.

Everything costs more over time... except, evidently, plane tickets, which the flying public expects to somehow remain static with increasing costs to produce it.

Until the airlines are MADE to price their product to cover cost, airlines are not a sustainable business model. Period. Anyone that thinks otherwise is delusional or doesn't understand the simple, basic economics of free-market business.

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

Lear,

You hit the nail on the head. WE are not the problem! WE are/were not that big of a cost burden to the company. WE cost less than $10 per passenger for BOTH of us. IE. Using a 757. 184 seats X 80% load factor X 2 legs per day X 14 days per month= $24729/month or $296755/year for capts and $16486/month or $197836/year for Fos. I used a 60/40 split on the $10. This works out for all aircraft in our fleet and would be a tremendous raise if we just charged at the boarding door $10 for our services. As you well know, Joe hates all Major pilots with the Delta pilots in a very special spot. It is our fault and we are the cause of all problems in the industry.

 

[ualdriver]

What was it that your former MEC Chairman Dubinsky said...."We don't want to kill the golden goose, we just want to choke it until it gives it's last egg"....The pensions choked the legacy carriers....

Same statement for you, Joe. Feel free to provide ANY verifiable information, with the math to back it up, that shows that the difference in pilot compensation between the old contract and Contract 2000 was the difference between solvency and insolvency for UAL inc. Maybe you can call Raoul and between the two of you, you can up with something. I won't hold my breath as I am fully aware that your anger toward ALPA clouds your judgment.

 

[PCL_128]

What was it that your former MEC Chairman Dubinsky said...."We don't want to kill the golden goose, we just want to choke it until it gives it's last egg"...

Sounds good to me. We could use a few more Captain Dubinskys in this industry.