Where was ALPA?

[pilotyip]

Does anyone still like flying airplanes?

 

[Lear70]

Sure. I love to fly.

I just don't like the schedule and the paycheck anymore... I'm making less now, adjusted for inflation, than I have since I was 25 in a King Air when I still lived at home and had no responsibilities, and I'm gone twice as much as any other job I've ever had.

If I got paid six figures (like I used to), it *MIGHT* offset the time away from home. Maybe. Or if I got paid this and was home every night in time to put the kids to bed and was able to wake up with them and put them on the bus to school before flying,,,

Don't know why that's so hard of a request to understand... Compensate us fairly and give us time off to have a life. What a concept.

 

[eaglesview]

PCL,
I am an "Eastie". I am not dying off anytime soon. If that is your desire, please let me know the time and place and I will be happy to meet with you. BTW, when many of us were walking the picket line, working at alpa headquarters, looking for work to support our families, etc, etc, you were in grade school (6 years old), mostly likely trying to figure out how not to wet your pants when the playground big boys picked on you. I would suggest that you get a real life and quit living in some fantasy world (ie Flightinfo.com, 9500+ posts). There is much more to life than your single-minded notion that alpa is the savior of the the airline industry.
Just my thoughts.

Perfect, well done!!

 

[pilotyip]

Consumers

Sure. I love to fly.

I just don't like the schedule and the paycheck anymore... I'm making less now, adjusted for inflation, than I have since I was 25 in a King Air when I still lived at home and had no responsibilities, and I'm gone twice as much as any other job I've ever had.

If I got paid six figures (like I used to), it *MIGHT* offset the time away from home. Maybe. Or if I got paid this and was home every night in time to put the kids to bed and was able to wake up with them and put them on the bus to school before flying,,,

Don't know why that's so hard of a request to understand... Compensate us fairly and give us time off to have a life. What a concept.

You sound unhappy? How can that be fixed? Do I read the kids are not important if I get paid more? If putting your kids to bed each night is the most important thing in your life, then you do not join the military or become an airline pilot. Life is too short for all the unhappiness I see on these sights. I have had a ball going through this career. Of course you know that story. This is still a great career

 

[imacdog]

Why do you care about focusing on the public? They don't matter. When push comes to shove, they'll care more about saving $0.99 on that next ticket. Wasting resources on advertising to the public is not a good plan.

Then why does ALPA take out full page ads in newspapers during contract negotiations?

 

[JungleJett]

PCL,
I am an "Eastie". I am not dying off anytime soon. If that is your desire, please let me know the time and place and I will be happy to meet with you. BTW, when many of us were walking the picket line, working at alpa headquarters, looking for work to support our families, etc, etc, you were in grade school (6 years old), mostly likely trying to figure out how not to wet your pants when the playground big boys picked on you. I would suggest that you get a real life and quit living in some fantasy world (ie Flightinfo.com, 9500+ posts). There is much more to life than your single-minded notion that alpa is the savior of the the airline industry.
Just my thoughts.

The dude bought his airline job to boot! He spouts off like he has been in the business since DC-3's and is personally trying to save the profession, a profession he was complicit in destroying. If he felt so strongly about ALPA, he would have gone to an ALPA carrier...but he chose not to. I find that hypocritical.


Spitfire....then why did ANY bogus info get out about the pilot and his actions? Why did ALPA NOT step up and keep them from smearing the guy? This investigation has been all but completed in the press and the speed at which they are releasing info is unreal.

 

[AA717driver]

Then why does ALPA take out full page ads in newspapers during contract negotiations?

dog--You're just muddying the waters. It's imperative we continue the same tactics that have been so successful and brought us to this point.

We mustn't upset the apple cart with any innovative thinking.

What was it Einstein said about 'repeating the same thing and expecting different results'?

TC

 

[ualdriver]

Justice??? No credit for anytime spent on the property before furlough is justice. Chances are we are flying with the same f/o's at UAL ask them how they would feel about that, especially the ones that are going out the door for the second time. There are two sides to every story.

I'm not sure what UAL's situation has to do with what I was talking about nor I am exactly sure what specifically you're referring to........

I'm talking about two groups of pilots agreeing to binding arbitration and one side doing everything in their power to get out of said arbitration because the results didn't suit their (unrealistic) desires. So when I'm talking about "justice," I'm talking about the end result of the litigation that is taking place right now that will hopefully compel both sides to honor the promises they made when they agreed to binding arbitration.

And I have ZERO desire to rehash the whole "binding arbitration" thing again, so don't bother.

 

[ualdriver]

Spitfire....then why did ANY bogus info get out about the pilot and his actions? Why did ALPA NOT step up and keep them from smearing the guy? This investigation has been all but completed in the press and the speed at which they are releasing info is unreal.

Because you guys have completely unrealistic expectations about what ALPA can and cannot do. ALPA doesn't walk into the halls of Congress and say, "These are the laws you are going to pass and this is how you're going to write them." ALPA doesn't walk into the NTSB's investigation and say, "this is the way you're going to conduct your investigation and what you're going to do and not do." ALPA doesn't walk into the boardroom at the airlines it represents and say, "this is the way you're going to run your company."

It doesn't work like that, yet every time something bad happens to us as professionals, particularly if it is an ALPA represented airline, it's "ALPA's fault." It's "ALPA's fault" that I took a paycut. It's "ALPA's fault" I lost my pension. It's "ALPA's fault" that my twice bankrupt company didn't get me date-of-hire seniority integration with another carrier. It's "ALPA's fault" that I got furloughed. It's "ALPA's fault that we retire at age 65 now." It's "ALPA's fault" that the NTSB said something we didn't like.

That's not how ALPA works, or any large organization for that matter. When you volunteer, when you pay your dues, etc., you do the best you can to INFLUENCE the world around you- the legislation in Congress, an accident invesitgation, you're management's behavior, and that's all you get. Sometimes it goes your way, and sometimes it doesn't.

So to answer you question, Junglejett, maybe the NTSB initially released the statement because maybe, just maybe, the NTSB runs its OWN investigation and doesn't clear everything they say or do through anyone else, including ALPA?

 

[JungleJett]

UAL..

Thats fine but lets be careful about making claims that ALPA will protect the pilots....maybe will be there to TRY and protect the pilots. Which in this case..did not.

ALPA is NOT the savior of this profession...pilots will save it. And pilots will sell each other out at every opportunity to get ahead.....until that stops, nothing will change. ALPA has too many masters and has lost its ability to represent the profession when it comes to QOL, pay, benefits...

Thanks for inventing (as some think) TCAS and color WX radar.....I am sure my banker thinks thats just great when he comes looking for his money.

 

[eaglesview]

I'm not sure what UAL's situation has to do with what I was talking about nor I am exactly sure what specifically you're referring to........

I'm talking about two groups of pilots agreeing to binding arbitration and one side doing everything in their power to get out of said arbitration because the results didn't suit their (unrealistic) desires. So when I'm talking about "justice," I'm talking about the end result of the litigation that is taking place right now that will hopefully compel both sides to honor the promises they made when they agreed to binding arbitration.

And I have ZERO desire to rehash the whole "binding arbitration" thing again, so don't bother.

Well we can talk about it at work. You'll be easy to find as you will be the only one spouting pro ALPA crap in a sea of realists.

 

[ualdriver]

Well we can talk about it at work. You'll be easy to find as you will be the only one spouting pro ALPA crap in a sea of realists.

Well, I guess you'll also have to explain which point I'm debating with you? The Nicolau award or something to do with UAL guys getting furloughed? I'm confused.

 

[ualdriver]

UAL..

Thats fine but lets be careful about making claims that ALPA will protect the pilots....maybe will be there to TRY and protect the pilots. Which in this case..did not.

ALPA is NOT the savior of this profession.

ALPA will represent the pilots if they're ALPA pilots, no? And isn't the word "try" implicit in anything ALPA attempts to do? ALPA can't wave a magic wand and make anything happen, and I'm not aware of any representational bodies that can.

You'll also have to point to where I claim ALPA is "the savior of the profession." I think you'll have better luck finding posts where I say that ALPA is the best deal the professional pilots in the U.S. have going for them. You'll also have better luck finding posts where I say that I'd be more than happy to consider a better organization than ALPA- I just have yet to be introduced to one yet. And if the "non-union" carriers (JetBlue, Allegiant, Virgin America, etc.) represent what my life could be like without ALPA representation, I'll take ALPA every day of the week.

 

[PCL_128]

I am an "Eastie".

Since when has USAirways "East" had 717s?

 

[stlflyguy]

ALPA will represent the pilots if they're ALPA pilots, no?

There's a descriptor that's missing: ALPA will represent the pilot's well if they're ALPA pilots, no?

Funny how that was missing. Having your MEC's staff attorney guiding you through a merger is like taking on known icing with just pitot heat. And ALPA has no issue with that whatsoever...

stlflyguy

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Did the TWA MEC waive scope?

 

[stlflyguy]

Did the TWA MEC waive scope?

You're predictable, Rez...and about as deep as a paper plate.

To answer your question, yes: at the RECOMMENDATION of ALPA NATIONAL ADVISORS whom NEVER DISCLOSED THERE WAS AN ORGANIZING CAMPAIGN GOING ON AT AA.

stlflyguy

 

[ualdriver]

You're predictable, Rez...and about as deep as a paper plate.

To answer your question, yes: at the RECOMMENDATION of ALPA NATIONAL ADVISORS whom NEVER DISCLOSED THERE WAS AN ORGANIZING CAMPAIGN GOING ON AT AA.

stlflyguy

Unfortunatley I know nothing of the law, but I had a friend get the Bensel vs. ALPA Complaint (i.e. TWA vs. ALPA, APA, etc.) from Westlaw just so as a complete layman I could read what the complaint was all about. I haven't read the whole thing but....

It looks to me that the 10 counts against ALPA were dismissed with prejudice, and that 9 of the 10 counts against APA were dismissed with prejudice and Count X was dismissed without prejudice? (see below)

So what is the talk of a continuing lawsuit against ALPA for DFR?


IT IS on this 18th day of July, 2003,
ORDERED THAT:
1. Defendants' motions to dismiss will be treated as
motions for summary judgment and will be GRANTED as to Counts I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII, VIII,
and IX of the Plaintiffs' second amended restated
complaint.
2. Defendants Air Line Pilots Association, American
Airlines, Inc., and TWA Airlines, LLC's motions
to dismiss Count X of the Plaintiffs' second
amended restated complaint will be treated as motions
for summary judgment and will be GRANTED.
3. Defendant Allied Pilots Association's motion to
dismiss Count X of the second amended restated
complaint will be treated as a motion for summary
judgment and Count X will be DISMISSED
WITHOUT PREJUDICE as to Allied Pilots Association
only.
4. Plaintiffs' motion for attorney fees and costs will
be DENIED.
D.N.J.,2003.
Bensel v. Allied Pilots Ass'n
271 F.Supp.2d 616, 172 L.R.R.M. (BNA) 3273
END OF

 

[stlflyguy]

Unfortunatley I know nothing of the law, but I had a friend get the Bensel vs. ALPA Complaint (i.e. TWA vs. ALPA, APA, etc.) from Westlaw just so as a complete layman I could read what the complaint was all about. I haven't read the whole thing but....

It looks to me that the 10 counts against ALPA were dismissed with prejudice, and that 9 of the 10 counts against APA were dismissed with prejudice and Count X was dismissed without prejudice? (see below)

So what is the talk of a continuing lawsuit against ALPA for DFR?


IT IS on this 18th day of July, 2003,
ORDERED THAT:
1. Defendants' motions to dismiss will be treated as
motions for summary judgment and will be GRANTED as to Counts I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII, VIII,
and IX of the Plaintiffs' second amended restated
complaint.
2. Defendants Air Line Pilots Association, American
Airlines, Inc., and TWA Airlines, LLC's motions
to dismiss Count X of the Plaintiffs' second
amended restated complaint will be treated as motions
for summary judgment and will be GRANTED.
3. Defendant Allied Pilots Association's motion to
dismiss Count X of the second amended restated
complaint will be treated as a motion for summary
judgment and Count X will be DISMISSED
WITHOUT PREJUDICE as to Allied Pilots Association
only.
4. Plaintiffs' motion for attorney fees and costs will
be DENIED.
D.N.J.,2003.
Bensel v. Allied Pilots Ass'n
271 F.Supp.2d 616, 172 L.R.R.M. (BNA) 3273
END OF

http://www.ca3.uscourts.gov/opinarch/033176p.pdf

Remanded on appeal.

stlflyguy

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

You're predictable, Rez...and about as deep as a paper plate.

To answer your question, yes: at the RECOMMENDATION of ALPA NATIONAL ADVISORS whom NEVER DISCLOSED THERE WAS AN ORGANIZING CAMPAIGN GOING ON AT AA.

stlflyguy

Not sure if you were ever a Part 121 PIC. I am sure you were. When I am sitting in the left seat, I am the man. Not the gov't. Not the company. Not the union.

It seems to me that the MEC and the Chair were wholy responsible for their group. Information, advice, counsel, etc.. is just that....

You are bitter... we get it....

 

[stlflyguy]

Not sure if you were ever a Part 121 PIC. I am sure you were. When I am sitting in the left seat, I am the man. Not the gov't. Not the company. Not the union.

It seems to me that the MEC and the Chair were wholy responsible for their group. Information, advice, counsel, etc.. is just that....

You are bitter... we get it....

...and you are clueless, we know.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

...and you are clueless, we know.

What is the latest update on the lawsuit?

 

[stlflyguy]

Why not ask your ALPA rep? Or are they just not that informed about the workings of National?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Why not ask your ALPA rep? Or are they just not that informed about the workings of National?

not going good?

 

[stlflyguy]

Actually, going very well.

stlflyguy

 

[ualdriver]

...and you are clueless, we know.

So a District Court Judge threw the whole original lawsuit out and now it's on appeal? It must have been a pretty weak case in the first place for it to have been thrown out without even going to court?

And from just skimming the document you sent me, it looks like all the Counts were thrown out AGAIN, except Count I? What do you mean when you say it's going well?

 

[STL717]

It really does not matter what any of us believe, think, know, demand, assume, etc.

The federal court system and the attorneys are preparing for a court date this year. No one knows the outcome until this case is resolved.

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

What exactly do you guys hope to get in the event you win??? I have not read the lawsuit, but if you expect to hit the jackpot of money good luck. I think alpa would just declare bankruptcy and disband. I know that any remaining groups would vote alpa out in a heartbeat before paying any assessments/fines do to a ruling in favor of y'all/rjdc etc. Part of me hopes you win, and we bolt as to get away from the constant threat of dfr suits from the little guys as we attempt to recapture our flying.

It really does not matter what any of us believe, think, know, demand, assume, etc.

The federal court system and the attorneys are preparing for a court date this year. No one knows the outcome until this case is resolved.

 

[AA717driver]

Cobraair--At this point, I would take making public the destruction of evidence, perjury, obfuscation and delaying tactics.

At one point in the deposition, Mugeditchian said he didn't even know how to turn on his ALPA-supplied laptop.

The evidence tampering is the most despicable and egregious.

Rez--If the MEC disregards the advice of their ALPA attorney, they are threatened with being put in receivership by National. THAT's how that works.

BTW, I bet the IT guy at National is looking over his shoulder a lot these days. Probably developed a tick, too.

We'll see...

TC

 

[Fubijaakr]

NEVER DISCLOSED THERE WAS AN ORGANIZING CAMPAIGN GOING ON AT AA.

YGBSM! I don't work for either AA or TWA and I knew there were APA/ALPA merger discussions underway. If it was a secret, it wasn't well kept.